val Holryn wrote:
(1) Under ARPG, and what I guess we can call in-world philosophy, all magic is most commonly thought to be tapping the residual energy of the universe left over from the Creator/act of creation. The Mother Church/PoM asserts this entity is dead. This was spelled out the original campaign in (IIRC) Magic of Arcanis. I would add my personal interpretation that the "corner of magic" that has been beaten into "a science" and works predictably for "the known world" is called the Arcanum. Lots of applications in Ymandragore (and even more exotic locations) are strange a wonderful even to experienced casters.
I have the blessed lands and sorcerous pacts pdfs, but have not yet found time to fully read them, I'm sure some of my philosophical conundrums could be answered in those.
That aside.. The one true creator, the one who made the world, the space it resides in, the cosmos around it, including other planets, the plane of existence that all of that resides in ( presumably we are still calling that the material plane) is known to have been created by something?
This is actually the first mention of this I have ever heard. There is plenty of small tid bits, places, origin stories for various magics or things or what have you that I don't know, even in the Primer there are references to things I'm unaware of existing, prior to reading their name's or seeing them mentioned. Such as the Crucible of Sins, in reference to the Deathbringers of Narroth. I imagine that is a plane of existence that is for Narroth in some way or another.
Also, so Illir is dead? How does he still have worshipers if he is dead? I'd ask where these clerics get magic from, but the gods being alive, seems to have little to do with their cants working, given the metaphysics of the Arcanis Universe. So long as the caster does as described and has faith, or whatever else the spell needs, it works. My question here is, if he is known to be dead, why do people worship him?
val Holryn wrote:
(2) People believe ALL magical sources derive from this origin. This is true for Cants and priests as well as psions, shamanism and "wizards." Thus from a certain perspective priests are essentially a kind of church sponsored wizard. In Arcanis they do NOT get their powers by channeling an infinitesimal portion of divine power. They use rote learning to keep and pass on the arcane formulas given to them by the Gods or Their Valinor in the Mythic Age or dawn of the First Imperium.
(3) what makes Cants different are (a) Priests don't know how to really modify them to create advanced spells or new spells. If mankind was meant to know how to do something with the Arcanum then *somewhere* the right Can't was left to work that miracle. Also (b) Cants require true faith in the Gods to "pull the trigger" on their spells. No faith in the Gods? Can't use Cants. A cynic or mourner might say, "It's almost like the Gods don't trust us with the unfettered magic ..."
Interesting, So clerics and other divine casters are not tapping into their gods own power. Rather they are using naturally occurring magic, by reciting cants that were given from their gods and require faith as a "spell component". Basically, all casters/psions tap the same magic to do their variations of magic?
I understand they all use it differently, learn it differently and may even not personally think it is the same thing.. but if it ultimately is the same thing, do the characters in this game even realize this? Or is this fact a in game philosophical discussion they probably have wars over?
val Holryn wrote:
(4) what makes Druidism/Shamanism/Warlock-ery different that "wizardry" is that the practitioner makes pacts with various beings to do a lot of the arcane heavy lifting. This frees oneself from needing a PhD in Magical Theory and in the case of "Humanity" frees one from the debilitating effects of using the gift. The bad news is you get saddled with Taboos and potentially have to keep your spirits happy so they keep helping you. In extreme cases this might mean selling your soul.
While not all warlock pacts require dark sacrifices, such as a pact with Orcus or whatever dark demon you want to sub in there, I imagine even the Fey pact requires something from you, adleast on a Roleplaying level if not mechanically. Though I cant recall a single time I've seen anything even remotely relating the the Fey Wild in any edition of Arcanis.
So I'm actually not sure with what you are making a pact if you are a Fey Warlock. Especially considering the lack of a Fey Wild to go to, visit, or have creature of that realm to come to Arcanis to even offer the pact in the first place?
In theory it makes perfect sense, that if you simply don't have the aptitude to be a wizard, or whatever kind of caster you wanted to be, you might turn to other powers to get some level of magic. Obviously from 5E to ARPG its a bit different, mechanical and fluff wise.
val Holryn wrote:
(5) what makes Eldritch/Elder different is you do it all on your own. No safety nets. On the down side if you screw up badly while tinkering with the Arcanum you blow yourself up. On the plus side if you live long enough to figure it all out then you cut and paste parts of known spells together how ever you like - and don't have to worry about what Gods, Temples or Spirits think of your choices. For Eldritch practitioners the guesstimating you make take a toll on your body over the years in the form of the wasting disease.
Yes I was just re reading the primer, and your pretty much spot on with its descriptions. So being a Wizard, or a Sorcerer is almost like being a "Mad Scientist"! lol
val Holryn wrote:
(6) What makes psionics different is you process the left over energy of creation biologically rather than through mentally plumbing the metaphysics of reality. Go strange glands in Val heads! Through concentration (and essentially solipsism) you then alter reality (in very limited ways) to match your desires.
So Vals have "Extra Glands" In their brains huh? No wonder they are all so moody, must be headaches all the time with that. lol
val Holryn wrote:
WHY CAN'T I BE A PRIEST of ORCUS: presumably Orcus does not know, and thus can't teach, Cants. This Is/Was certainly true for Uhxbractit who is....
So for the sake of conversation, Uhxbractit, is The "Demon/Devil" of the game, He comes from another plane of existence, Hell or the Abyss / whatever you call it. So is he the Top dog of that Realm? Or is he just the one that came to Arcanis in the past during the Time of Terror when the Sorcerer Kings Curse and his Ego, basically screwed over everybody.
val Holryn wrote:
WHY CAN'T I WORSHIP the OTHER: ...uh. Well you can if you really want to. But there are no Cants that have survived into the modern day (at least where PCs can find them). So you really can't be an initiate in the divine sense. Most people don't worship the OTHER because it could get you in trouble & make you a pariah or flat out get you killed (definitely in Coryan & Canceri). In the First City you wouldn't be killed for being a lay follower. Kind of an interesting idea.
I of course have always felt that the story about how the POM are the good guys, and are fighting against a great destroyer is largely propaganda and exists as a veil for their continued conquest of the respective multiverse. I mean they have lied a lot to their worshipers haven't they? I think Anshar or Saulwe is actually The Ssethric diety Yig, right? That brings into question the vals of that god.
I basically always suspected that mourners of silence were worshiping the other, without knowing it. That or some Call of Cathullu monster like the Myrantians worship.
Though that organization has different versions of itself. My 3.5 era Dark-kin was a mourner, but he didn't think the gods were dead, obviously as by things he had seen, he just thought they literally did not care, because mortals had so consistently disappointed them over and over again during their entire existence. Whatever "divine" things he saw were, in his view, caused by mortals using the gods magic, or fallen/ left over servants of the gods attempting to complete tasks given to them long ago. Like a robot or computer trying to move down a hall way that is blocked, and it cant unblock it, or something along those lines. So they just sit their waiting for when they can finally act on their orders.
I imagine The other as Dormamu from Dr. Strange, he grants eternal life and peace, but not the kind your think of.
Nierite wrote:
To summarize above in the TL:DR view:
What we mere mortals consider "good" and "evil", or even "righteous" and "heretical" does not necessarily match the views of divine and almost omniscient beings. Just because a person worships a god in a 'heretical' way according to the Mother Church doesn't mean that that god would necessarily agree, because they do not share our beliefs.
As a general view, think about Arcanis Gods more like Lovecraftian gods than Greek gods. In Lovecraft, the gods are generally apathetic to the plights of the individual, but are more concerned with 'broader' concerns like the survival of the species or the destruction of a planet. The suffering or heresy of a single person is so tiny it would be like us concerning ourselves with the interpersonal conflicts between ants.
Thank you for your reply, both this one and the larger one above it. Seeing as you and Val Holryn, covered many of the same topics with variations of the same, or similar answers. I'm not going to fully quote you, as it is simply to time consuming to edit all that so its readable in a reply. Thank you all for these lengthy replies though, I find this discussion very interesting.
That said, What is the core difference between the current worship of the Branches of the POM and the original worship of these gods? I feel I asked this before somewhere.. but I don't remember. Is the original teachings, more in line with these love craftian or greek inspired gods and their intended tenants for their worshipers?
I imagine that if they ever wanted worshipers at all, they had to teach them something, so while all the Arcanis gods may be vague or above our morality or however you wish to see it. If they want worshipers, or rather want to steer humanity in a certain direction they view as right, then I imagine if any of the Tenants were "more correct" it'd be the First church, during the Grand olden days of the Imperium of man, right?
Oh and, whats this about the Val Holryns being The Others Angelic offspring to mortals? I'd buy into that, lol!