The revelation in "Visions of Lives Past" matches well with hints about the eloran schism that were revealed in LA-HP4-2 "The Banished."

-David Thomas Chappell

But when Ravan Tindal break away? Before this mod in reaction to the Berokenes place in society as second class citizens? Or after the actions in this mod implying a betrayal by the Ardekene after the arrival of humanity? And either way how did the tiny enclave fall under the sway of entropic creatures?

Well I think the influence of the entropic creatures were pretty well defined in the mod from the old campaign, as they 'saved' raven tindal from being poisoned by the lingering effects of the cyclopes of Saam-ur AND the whole fake Oumar.

I assume that information (and the following) was made public ish by adventurers

A ha - thank you sir!

I don't have very many of the old modules so the reference is appreciated.

Prepping this module, there is at least one reference to a map but nothing in the pdf package. Does anyone have maps handy that they can send me? Running this tonight.

Thanks

Hello Akira,



Sorry about that. I've emailed you a ZIP file of the maps and have sent them to an LA Staff member to upload to the site.

I hope you get this in time.

Enjoy!

Where can this map be found?

Hey, it's my topic!
Let's see....

Reviewing the mod there is neither an actual alternate conclusion nor any heart-rending choice between destroying the key and preserving Malandros's life.

Lo, I am vexed that our Judge pulled that crap out of his tuckus to keep us headed to "Conclusion A."

Even destroying the key isn't really an option as, congratulations, you've just crossed an unscrupulous elder Elorii who can probably atomize you with a thought. This isn't even "you screwed him and ran," it's "you screwed him and he knows where you are and finds you faster then Loshnek."
I realize "Conclusion B: Xercel frowns and you all die in a fire; please give your characters and log sheets to the judge" wouldn't really be kosher, but to me that seems like the actually plausible outcome to betraying someone with no apparent reason not to be murderously angry about it.

I think The Vault is right.

From Maranithia's sheet:
"They treat us little better than servants. Mindless brutes to be used only when our leaders don't want to get their hands dirty."
"So here you are – being sent into one of the deadliest places in the empire with a group of
people you barely know. But successfully concluding this mission will change everything. You’ve been promised by the Ardakene that a new day is dawning upon our people and the old way will be washed aside and a new one, where we are all treated as equals shall be put in place."
"You just need to make sure that the Ardakene stays alive to fulfill their end of the bargain."

That perspective decries that the Marokene were contented in their state of oppression.
Enough so to sabotage a mission that could've lead to revenge against the humans. Even without the drive to restore the Elemental Lords there's still the matter of the Belekith and the many, many subsequent deaths to avenge.

Also it's ironic that Desaviatas, who performs two betrayals, has the "Code of Honor" flaw.

So while this past state of the Elorii is 5,000 years old it's also the way of things before the arrival of the Prophetess -and possibly afterwards, too. The Eloran Empire lasts about 2,000 years and apparently drifts into the situation we're discussing now... and I still don't get why.

What's the answer besides "everybody sucks?" It couldn't have been that there were no inter-bloodkine encounters. They had actual cities and fortresses and all the rest of it and that seems to deny the likelyhood of every community being racially layered in just the same way.

Upon reflection I'm not even sure there was a problem. Marokene are stereotyped as being conservative and reactionary with a taste for solitude and isolationist communities. And nowhere in the other characters notes, besides Desaviatas of course, are there any thoughts about the politics of the nation. So it's entirely possible this whole issue never existed at all except in the fevered minds of the two conspirators.

That's part of what bugs me here. In a society that's one Pope short of being an actual Theocracy the Ardakene, the compassionate, empathetic Ardakene who're also most of the clergy -the most important people in the nation, don't have the suction to get everyone circulating around the social orders?

Also it seems like the betrayal of Marnithia is kind of short-sighted. What was the point? To conceal the key? Did Desaviatas not think that, as the other Elorii knew where the key was when they were murdered, that they wouldn't come across that memory again? Or that the memories couldn't be provoked into returning? It's entirely possible that Xercel found his brother before the mod starts and dosed him with something that causes him to start uncontrollably flashing back as a pretense to getting his catspaw's to do his bidding -"do help my poor brother; I have no idea why he's tripping out."

And what about Esteverea? She says:
"You have no right to that claim, heretic!,” the Acton snarls. “You rejected our ways, shed your name and took that ridiculous title – Xercel” She practically spat out that last word."

Why can't the PC's interview her? She's clearly got some insight into his history and a takes the endeavor seriously enough to want to see it's outcome not be to Xercel's liking.

I mean, to be candid I'm pretty sure why that option doesn't exist is because it might suggest choices that don't exist. The mod only ends one way irregardless of any judge's particular inclination and most importantly that means that Xercel gets the key in the actual historical sequence of things.

Besides a line or two of Xercel making some appeals to racial solidarity it doesn't seem like the presence of Eloran PC's is factored into the module. Besides the cert, which isn't inconsequential to be sure but isn't automatically part of the experience, there's nothing actually involving an Elorii PC in the mod.

For example the parting text is: "From below a voice cuts through the murmur of the crowd, "You have set in motion actions that will have dire consequences for both your people and mine. I pray to the Goddess that the rebel Xercel may yet be stopped."
"Without another word, the Ardakene turns and stalks away."

Pardone madam, but I'm playing "one of your people," -could you perhaps spare a second to un-cryptic your comments so I might glean insight into the "dire consequences?"

The Blessed Lands preview entry for the Elorii has what I think of as a bone tossed to the players: the Eloran Empire kind of wasn't. Having broken away from servitude at the scales of the Sstherics the Elorii didn't turn right around and throw the yoke onto the necks of the rest of the continent.
Yay!
Thank you!

I really like the Elorii because I really, really didn't want to play a human with pointed ears.
I like playing a character who's background is both lost glory and a society that maybe for once had learned from the mistakes of the empire that both birthed and betrayed it.

Or that they've got Ardelia's prophecy, but seem to lack a post-game for what happens if everything goes as planned. The Elemental Lords come back!...and then what? Do the Elorii pack up their stuff, wave goodbye, and wander back into the forest to sit around blissing out about how great it is the family's back together?

They're bent on revenge, but confused about what role to play in the history unfolding around them. They're in denial about the corruption of the Malfeans and paralyzed by the events of Manetas's reign -which ends up exterminating them, if history didn't change. The Laerestri pour in fantastic and bizarre reports about cults and ancient dragons and "oh hey the Il-Huan aren't dead and that's bad!" and Ethelios scratches it's wise head about what to do about it when in 80 years the next budget meeting is scheduled.

One of the key mysteries of the Elorii is how much their identity is ordered around Belisarda compared to how little they know of her. Or what about the Umor? Is He an enemy or ally? Or what if the Elemental Lords aren't gods?

The Elorii are this compelling mix of wise and naive, and that's what I like about them.

One of the biggest realizations my Lifewarden had that turned her towards acting for the greater good of all was how good she had it! Holy CRAP the human cities are squalid and crowded and dangerous and their gods are crazy and they fight wars everywhere all the time against everything and everyone!
And she's got to help out because a) they're (lesser) Children of Belisarda as well (in her very liberal sense of "they are alive, can feel positive emotions, and can be reasoned with*) and b) they're terribly potent and if they're not aided their problems will spiral out of control and become the doom of her people.
Again.

And that means walking a perilous line between what the duties of a Laerestri are, what she has to do to survive, and trying to somehow bend the continuously random and terrifying circumstances of her fate to Belisarda's will.

(Whatever that is -ask me about the Skinless Lady some time and I can tell you why otherwise sensible, committed players actually gave their PC's up to do as she bids.)

And that leading to her realizing and embracing how incredibly important to her the random-ass collection of non-Elorii "heroes" that carry her through hell and high water are while the armies of her excellent, beloved kin and cousins sit on their masterfully trained hands and play with their meticulously coiffed hair.

So what the hell does all that mean?

It means that I don't get it.

Visions of Lives Past is surely something that I've been agitating for -an Elorii mod about Elorii history, and I don't get it.

I don't get the reasoning behind the apparent social strife of the Eloran Empire. I don't see why it's there except as an exercise in really broad cliche' about biological determinism. Marokene are dumb, Kelekene are jerks, and nobody else is paying attention. wut. Why is this here? Do the Elorii and fans need to be "knocked down a peg?"

I don't get why there aren't choices in this mod. Arcanis should always be either dramatic or triumphant and this is neither and I don't get it. Xercel is a snide, smirky dick and I don't care about Malandros -your brother, your brother boo-honking-hoo; what is this, Other M!?

Maybe there was more emphasis on Xercel being coercive and I missed it; maybe there should be. That's the implication in the beginning and the end right? That he's a Straight G Kelekene Pyromancer and that if there isn't a Valinor in your pocket you are going to do what he says and smile when you say you like following orders, sir.

I'm interested in the Towers and I'm interested in the Blessed Lands, but from the perspective of an Elorii fan there are already too many questions -how about some answers instead.

Wuh.

Before this Crazy Train finally debarks in T.M.I.-ville I want to tell this last story:
When, so many dear goddess how many, years ago Eric Gorman mentioned that he'd picked up this setting called Arcanis: the World of Shattered Empires at Origins, and that it looked crazy complex and compelling and epic and I instantly, instantly, thought, "I want to play a Paladin! In a world of deadly compromises and dangerous politics I want to be someone who unambiguously struggles for the common good and who will suffer hilariously for that kind of naive ambition."

And I did. AND IT WAS GREAT!

And now I'm like, "I don't get it. This guy is a bag of dicks and his brother is a chump and I don't know what's going on and I can't find out and like WOW this mod has 6 combat encounters of which I remember only 2 -the one that starts 'that's new' because it was funny and the really gnarly deadly last one."

Did I change? Did the campaign change? Is anything actually different or is this something that just eclipses my mediocre middlebrow monkey mentality?

I don't get it.

Fin.



*by this reasoning so are cats, dogs, messenger lizards and Kio.
Incidentally Phaia's also known to say "Belisarda loves you, but she loves everything else that lives and thrives just as much. You are not by default more important than the worms that will consume your corpse if you oppose her ."

I like your post ZCaslar. I'm going to crack my fingers and see if I can help. Beware Extra Spoilers

The key thing to remember is we as players aren't aware of Elonbe society as it is now. Because there is a black out of info about this coming from both the leaders of Elonbe, and from the Laerestri they send out. The latter supposedly because their minds are wiped before leaving. The less a Laerestri knows the less they can tell anyone else. In-the-know Elorii NPCs won't tell you more because you are an Elorii they will tell you less because you left the safety of the forest.

So Visions of Lives Past showed us the past, and it showed us a society like Arcanis today with prejudice's and division.

We can catch a glimpse of Elorii living in Entaris, but it's different from Elonbe because they must live with humans. A series of Module from the old arc show us this lifestyle. The Darkest Depths, Beyond the Threshold of Never, and Divided We Fall. But this society shows us, that Elorii may not have changed much. They created an Elorii only section of the city and the human section. They argue amongst themselves, and the Ardakene leader does what he thinks is right in secret even it goes against the wishes of everyone else. It seems Ardakene are the secret masters of the Elorii constantly controlling the situation, but to what end?

What else do we know? We know that after Desviatas succeeds and the Ardakene put their plan into motion. We know that a group of Berokene find out about the plan and the Ardakene have that group exiled (eventually founding Ravan'Tindal) Finally we know that the Ardakene needed the Tower of Gettlus out of the picture because it gives their people another option than just the Ardakene plan, which has now gone unchallenged in 5000 years. We don't know much, I admit but I think we can agree whatever the Ardakene are doing they think it's very important and don't want to stop or change it. And the Key to the Tower of Gettlus in Xercel's hands does change it.

Who is Xercel? Well first his name was Xerxes in the old arc. He was captured by the Harvesters from an obscure Elorii outpost a very long time ago. He was capture because the Sorcerer King wanted to study an Elorii. He had lived on the Isle of Ymandragore since his capture not as a Harvester, but more like a slave or pet to various high ranking individuals. He was also the teacher to Gemmules val'Assante the second in command on the Isle. He got married to another Elorii that was capture and had a daughter. He made a play to warn the mainland of Lucius Orata's plan by teleporting his daughter off the Isle. He was imprisioned and his wife died in the process. He was rescued from the Isle by the Heroes doing the plan to stop Orata. The next time you see him he wants Heroes to find an ancient Elorii armory that has shields that will protect against one of the Elorii's ancient enemies. He had a vision they will be needed. If you succeed he's happy if you betray him he's pissed.
So to anyone who played the old arc they have a preconception about Xercel, that the actions he's taking are probably good for everyone. And as a GM I run Xercel as a caring individual that just wants Malandros to be helped. While the other Elorii in the module are aloof, and condescending. I never had any players question his motive just curious about his history.

During the delve into the Tower of Gettlus, I've always had Malandros as useless, he mumbles, repeats himself, he remains out of combat and off the board as a target, he's doesn't help the party solve puzzles, not because he doesn't want to but be cause he can't remember. The party has felt resentment to such a useless guide, but never distrust, or suspicion about his quest.

During the climax (the second last combat) the party has been surprised, shocked, and especially confused by the actions of the Ardakene and Marokene. "Why don't you heal me, I need it?", "Can't you help me kill this guy first he's really hurting me." There has never been a question of what do to with the key once freed.
You said ZCaslar that you wished to make a decision, ask questions to the people who know what's going on, and get answers. But this module is the introduction. You are suppose to want to help Malandros and Xercel not stop them. You are suppose to be surprised by what you learn and confused about what it could mean and wonder what you just started. Just like So Shall Ye Reap you help the boy because it's the right thing to do. It's only after you learn about the disease he carries. Once more of this Elorii series comes out we will learn more about what's going on.
What did the Ardakene do? What can Xercel do with the Tower of Gettlus (or items in the towers) to stop the Ardakene? Then we decide who to help and who to stop.

Zac, when I try to distill things down to their essence I take two big things away from a long post. You have concerns that: (1) the out come of the module is predetermined and (2) what has been exposed about elorii society is either distasteful to you, or doesn't make sense to you, or both.

(1) The first is easier for me: Yes, as written there is nothing there to support PCs choosing to hide or destroy the key. But its also true that there was really nothing in older mods to leave Villa'Talevorantis chained up...still in that later case nearly half the tables did in fact refuse to free the Dragon in the first run. Henry has said that he was trying to decide what to do with a tie between the outcomes when a last table result came in (with a Tultipetan dwarf no less). They freed the Dragon and thus was Tultipet's doom sealed... And before that Elebac nearly became an undead creature in the second or third mod of the old campaign because (again) it was up to player initiative to talk him out of choosing undeath to extend his life in search for the perfect weapon. Many tables either accepted the plot hook passively or even thought undeath was cool...

So I reject the idea that the players are essentially railroaded in the module. I do believe that PCs can metaphorically give Xercel the finger ... though the price is high in the apparent unraveling of an innocents psyche. My table, after a fierce debate, destroyed the key. We were lucky to have a good judge who was ready to roll with our curve balls. On my copy of the cert from that event the judge wrote: Ire of Xercel...and I'm fine with that. I thought there was a small chance of getting nuked by a tall elorii but also had the thought that if Tukufu was going to die by box text, trying to limit the amount of doomsday weapons floating around Onara was a good way to go. I've only run the mod once and I didn't try to force the players to any decision. If players/characters are afraid of refusing Xercel that's a reasonable point of view.

(2) The second point is harder for me to write about because I have never had deep thoughts or emotional connections to eloran society. The elorii don't particularly call out to me as a player. But I would note that the number of alleged utopias to actual utopias is not 1:1 in Arcanis. Maybe you noticed. In the age when mankind lived together with the Gods of the PoM there was war between the Gods. In the Golden Age of the First Imperium we know of lots of bad things that happened...and we can add the Blood War to the growing list. Almeric might have managed a "happily ever after" at the conclusion of the last campaign arc, but its now the biggest mess in the known lands. Even in Bastion there were undercurrents of discontent. So no, I'm not shocked that a veil is slightly lifted to show that at times elorii politics is as venal and ruthless as human politics. I don't know why elorii players would be surprised by this unless they subscribe to the idea that the elorii are "the most special snowflakes" in Arcanis. Every other race and people struggle with internal divisions and villians in their own ranks.

Establishing some level of Intra-eloran conflict is also probably thematic. I suspect Henry has an opinion on people whitewashing their history that comes out as an influence on his writing. But even if that is wildly wrong, on a meta level it is also just good planning to embed conflict in "history." Its out of conflict that adventures arise. And a campaign is built out of adventures. To have elorii based adventures there have to be elorii based conflicts. I will conclude by repeating that we really are vastly ignorant of what's going on at the elorii "grown ups" table. We've only sat at the kids table. When we've had a seat at all. Maybe they are all saintly. Maybe the Voiceless Ones have taken over when no one was looking. We just don't know. Hopefully more will be unfurled in the nearish future.