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 Post subject: Dwarven Heartstone Question
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:04 pm 

Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:48 pm
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Something I've been meaning to ask since I'm running the Siege of Tultipet for my group, does the Heartstone radiate any Psionic energy, like the Soulstones do?

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 Post subject: Re: Dwarven Heartstone Question
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 1:44 am 
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I had hoped someone would take a stab at this. I am not really sure myself.

I *think* that the dwarves soul stones detect as psionic (or at least have similarities to psionic items) because of the way they are made and the fact that crystals are so often used in the art of psionics. Or maybe even because the Celestial Giants had vast psionic abilities and even as dwarves it is faintly detectable when the soul is stripped from the prison of flesh.

If that's the case then I would *guess* that a heartstone would also show up as psionic for much the same reasons.

My guess. The heartstone is effectively an artifact. Possibly it follows its own unique rules...

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 Post subject: Re: Dwarven Heartstone Question
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 8:46 am 

Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:46 pm
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val Holryn wrote:
I had hoped someone would take a stab at this. I am not really sure myself.<snip>


To be fair you're usually one of the first ones to take a stab at these kinds of questions. Cody's musings have been cut back since he joined the staff.

I agree it's an artifact. The nature of the magic should be tied to the nature of Illir's Curse. Without it, there would be no Heartstones. The closest spell effect to what happened to the giants is shapechange which is a Psionics only ability. Thought of in that way you could look at a soulstone as the mechanism for the psionic reduction with it needing periodic recharging from a central power source. It would be interesting to know if it radiates psionics, divine magic or both. It's also curious to think about what they mean when you think about what happens to a dwarf when they step through a World Gate.

No one official, certainly. It is an interesting question though.

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 Post subject: Re: Dwarven Heartstone Question
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 10:47 am 

Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:48 pm
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val Holryn wrote:
My guess. The heartstone is effectively an artifact. Possibly it follows its own unique rules...


Well, if it is an artifact, maybe it plays by similar rules to the soulstones. Maybe the energy within it can be sealed, like how soulstones are sealed in the creation of certain psionic items, like the Screaming Sword.

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 Post subject: Re: Dwarven Heartstone Question
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 10:32 pm 
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::Hears his name on the wind. . . ::

I don't believe that it has ever been stated if the Heartstones are psionic, but I think the issue is more complicated than that. Recall that the heartstones were created when Illiir Himself cursed the Celestial Giants. He got Beltine to block their souls from entering the Cauldron (or wherever else they may go), and when the Gods themselves speak and act, the forces at work may transcend what we consider to be magic and psionics.

We know that the Gods--at least of the Pantheon of Man--are able to have at least limited control over psionics, as their valinor imbued the ability to manipulate psionics upon the vals. We also know that Gods in general can pull the same trick, as Anshar Herself imbued the val'Inares and not a valinor. This means that at least SOME of their being is psionic in nature, so in this case, presumably at least some of the heartstone has a psionic nature.

If we were only talking about the ARG rules, the metaphysics at work makes this very simple as Psionics is but another Source of the Arcanum, just like Elder and Eldritch and Primal. 5e is more compliated because the mechanics at work are moving further and further away from traditional magic (like in the 3.5 days). That said, until it is corrected in forthcoming books or mods, psionics is simply another way to affect the Arcanum, and the Arcanum is simply the residual force of creation. As the most powerful beings of not-entropy in the universe (suggested by Illiir's imperative to fight oblivion), it suggests that the Gods also gain their power from the Arcanum. It is possible that they may in fact be a force of the Arcanum itself, which means they can completely transcend the differences between these sources.

. . . and now for your regularly scheduled conspiracy theories ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Dwarven Heartstone Question
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 11:21 am 

Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:48 pm
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Well, we've come a long way, from discussing Dwarven Magic rocks to the nature of the Arcanum itself. But that's not a bad thing. I'll start by discussing the different types of magic and their theological reprecussions.

Arcane Magic: Consisting of both Elder and Eldritch magic, this Arcanum is notable for the sheer flexibility of the spells involved. Arcane Magic can basically be whatever you want it to be, as long as you have a proper understanding of the Arcanum and force of will needed to shape creation. Also known for the Wasting Disease. While effects vary depending on the subject, it all ends with the physical breakdown and death of the spellcaster involved. The Sorcerer-King is said to have a cure. Arcane Magic is championed by Sarish, the God of Secrets, which makes it a wonder that somehow the clergy have managed to make Arcane Magic "supplanting the will of the Gods", if Sarish allows it. Arcane Magic users consist of Elder Sorcerers, Eldritch Sorcerers, Elder Warlocks, and Sorcerer Priests.

Divine Magic: Notably not championed by a single god, Divine Magic is the art of a Deity granting magic to their spellcasters. Unique to Arcanis, gods don't directly grant the cants of faith. Rather, the original formula is created by the god and passed down to the followers with two rules: 1. You must have faith, and 2. you must follow the exact formula for it to work. This means Divine Magic is more restricted in terms of flexibility, but it is also more reliable. Divine Magic users consist of Clerics and Holy Champions.

Shamanism: Shamanistic magic is not championed by a god, but rather spirits. Spirits are manifestations of the living world, where gods might embody ideas such as Light, Water, Earth etc, spirits are more likely to represent a particular river, or a mountain. Rather than granting cants or spell formulas, you must make a pact with the spirit. In exchange for certain magic spells and abilities, you must follow the rules set in place by the spirit. Perhaps a Dolphin Spirit grants enhanced swimming capabilities in exchange for embodying the playful nature of it's namesake, or a Wolf Spirit makes you embody the pack nature of the Wolf. This is the only Arcanum looked down on or disrespected, as many gods see trucking with lesser spirits as disrespectful. Of course, I have asked some priests if it's okay to have gods after the pantheon (in correspondence to the "thou chalt have no gods before me rule), but in all cases it got me yelled at by everyone present. Shamanistic casters consist of Shamans and certain types of Furies.

Psionics: Psionics is a unique Arcanum, as while the first three are mutually exclusive to one another, Psionics can be combined with anything. Psionics doesn't rely on an outside source, rather, you manifest your powers by creating "foci", of fragments of consciousness. These fragments are then focused into pathways of power or are collapsed into "expressions", which grant spell-like effects. Races such as the Val, Ssanu, Brood of Caneturec, Voiceless Ones, Sansho, Il'Huan, Obnu-il, and many, many others are all allowed to manifest Psionics through a unique organ known as a Neurological Shiv. Psionics is also not championed by any one human god, but those in inner circles may have greater insight as to why that is. Psionic caster consist of Psions and Psi-Warriors.

Dissolution: Less of a type of Arcanum and more of a tradition, it's unique enough to warrant discussion. Dissolution magic consists of channeling the power of Entropy, and is often seen as a yellowish mist. Known for the ability to erase things from reality (which violates several laws of physics), Dissolution is utilized exclusively by the servants of the Silence. I personally have a theory that Entropy is to the Silence in the same way that Cants are to gods. That is to say, Divine Magic can be used for evil and Entropy can be used for good. Anyone who practices the tradition and wants to share it outside of those loyal to the Silence are probably dead before they can share their secrets, but it would be a major advantage for the Forces of Creation to learn how to "fight fire with fire", if you will. When Codex of The Mind comes out, we will get greater insight into the Forces of Entropy and how their magic works. Dissolutionists commonly come from the Arcane and Psionic Arcanums, the most common of which are Entropomancers and Mist Walkers, respectively.

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 Post subject: Re: Dwarven Heartstone Question
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 11:33 am 

Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:48 pm
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While we can see that the Arcanums are very different, with completely different practitioners. The gods themselves probably work with a more "pure" form of Arcanum manipulation. While Arcane Magic (and Psionics, to an extent) can be manipulated by the gods, it is primarily Divine magic being used by their servants, and we haven't seen a Valinor use anything other than Divine Magic or Psionics, I imagine the Valinor of Sarish are able to use Arcane Magic. But for the most part, gods of anything other than a specific Arcanum utilize magic mortals cannot comprehend or control. They don't "use" an Arcanum to focus the power of Creation, they directly manipulate it. Perhaps the prerequisite for godhood is the ability to manipulate Creation, rather than rely solely on magic used by mortals.

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 Post subject: Re: Dwarven Heartstone Question
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 11:39 am 

Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:48 pm
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Also, there is Bloodline Powers, which is a psi-like ability manifested by those with strong Celestial, Elemental, or Infernal ties. Val, Elorii, and the Eight Dark-kin Broods are the only races we know of that can manipulate these abilities. Additionally, Bloodline Powers aren't seen as a form of Arcanum, so they aren't generally harvested by Ymandrakes (Wine Drinkers and Handless Society contend this point). However, we see strong connections between Bloodline Powers, Psionics, and Arcane Magic. As of right now, until I can get further into the manipulation of Bloodline Powers in-game, I cannot enlighten you on the nature of Bloodlines just yet, but I will try and put something together here soon.

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 Post subject: Re: Dwarven Heartstone Question
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 5:10 am 
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vandom43 wrote:
Well, if it is an artifact, maybe it plays by similar rules to the soulstones. Maybe the energy within it can be sealed, like how soulstones are sealed in the creation of certain psionic items, like the Screaming Sword.
I doubt it. Just touching a hearthstone can kill someone who isn't of the right ancestry. And a True Dragon apparently can't damage one. I don't see how mortals can monkey around with one. I expect would-be experimenters live very very brief lives.

Cody mentioned (!a post from Cody!) that the different styles of casting are all about different approaches to welding the arcanum (that modest corner of "magic" that mortals can manipulate with predictable results). If you produce result X, which then endures through time, when adventures show up years later, there may not be a way to guess how the original practitioner got to X. Like hey I found this magic sword. I wonder if it was made with sorcery, or something else? I believe you probably never get an answer to that question unless you find out who made it. Henry has said in THEORY all the different styles can get to the same outcomes and if you were sufficiently good at one style the "in game" walls that define traditions would begin to melt and you'd have sorcerers who could heal & all clerics might know a cant for Fireball. But in PRACTICE each corner of the Arcanum has been separately husbanding knowledge/reinventing wheels and has a somewhat unique collection of spells and tricks that all differ from all the others.

This is all different from bloodline powers, which while clearly magic, are not part of the arcanum. Although we have the example of the Bloodwar as a time when vals tried to tinker with their abilities, almost entirely the bloodline powers are immutable. They neither need husbanding nor are they expandable through normal invention. Though of course we have two examples of bloodline powers changing as a result of things happening on the level of Valinor and Deities (the val'Tensen & Reluctant no More, and the val'Abebi & the Blast)..

In that light its kinda odd that crystals with dwarves souls are semi equated with psionic powers. Thinking more on the topic I would assume that either (1) it just happens that they are simpatico with what psions are currently capable of doing or (2) that the psionic soul of the celestial giants is shining through.

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. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Dwarven Heartstone Question
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 11:17 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
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Location: Michigan
val Holryn wrote:
In that light its kinda odd that crystals with dwarves souls are semi equated with psionic powers. Thinking more on the topic I would assume that either (1) it just happens that they are simpatico with what psions are currently capable of doing or (2) that the psionic soul of the celestial giants is shining through.


We have seen thought that souls are a source of energy that can be used by the arcane of different flavors. The soul is used as a power source in the creation of intelligent undead (usually divine magic, I think, plus whatever bloodline powers are). Soul energy is used by Elorii to "go nuclear" when using Kurtethe curse (usually augmenting arcane magic). Additionally, we saw some soul energy in a trapped form in Ravan’Tindal that divine casters were immediately attuned with. The energy represented by the souls in Dwarven soul shards resonates with psionicists, but the Shard Shapers of Ymandragore (magic of Arcanis pg 209) have also learned how to tap a the soul in a shard as a source of power/knowledge for magic.

So once again, I think this is a case of all kinds of magic can use a soul as a source of energy, like the soul in a shard. I think the shard itself is designed in a way to be responsive to psionics, possibly lending the soul in it to be most accessible to psionics from that vessel (the soul shard) vs the other arcanum, but with work all arcanum could use the shards. It may be a reflection of the soul shard being designed from the original design of the shards for the Khi’faree, which were meant to help psionicists in some way...

I have always been interested in seeing someone attempt to burn someone else's soul for a conversion to undead (instead of their own), thus creating an intelligent undead with a soul. Something that might be possible if a particularly creative necromancer got a hold of a soul shard or two.

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