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 Post subject: Re: Stats for horses?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:49 pm 
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I haven't stacked them in the stat block anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Stats for horses?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:10 am 

Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:49 pm
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Finally tried to just stat one out.

RC Horse Stats - proposal (rationale at the bottom)

Horse (300 pt build): Ultra-level common threat OR Beta-level exceptional threat

Stats: (162 pts)
Stat Base Val Pts Die PM

Might* 3 12 64 d12 +5
Prowess* 3 6 12 d8 +3
Quickness* 3 6 12 d8 +3
Vigor* 3 12 64 d12 +5
Charisma 1 1 0 d4 +1
Insight 1 3 5 d6 +2
Logic 1 1 0 d4 +1
Resolve 1 3 5 d6 +2

Size: Large

Attacks (15 pts):
-Kick/Trample (hoof): +4 (= melee skill)
-Damage die: d8 (purchased as a rank 5 "additional attribute")

Avoidance 16 (=17 - 1 for "large")
Discipline 16
Fortitude 23 (=22 + 1 for "toughness")
Stamina 30 (or 61 = 55 + 6 for "toughness" for the "exceptional threat" version)
Wounds 1 (or 2 for the "exceptional threat" version)

AR: (2 pts)
-Ballistic 1
-Melee 1
-Energy 0

Pace 5
Initiative 3

Advantages: (15)
Diehard 5
Toughness 5
Wary 5

Natural Abilities: (24)
Enh. Hearing* 6 16
Speed* 3 4
Surge(run)* 3 4 (2x per scene)

Skills: (82)
Athletics 7 28
Acrobatics 4 10
Melee 4 10
Perception 7 28
Stealth 3 6

Rationale & Concept:

1. "Common" versus "Exceptional" threat: Both are 300 point builds, but common threats get 1 Wound and half stamina, whereas exceptional threats get their full stamina and 2 Wounds. Thus, this build could be used in either capacity with minimal alteration, depending on what you need story-wise.

2. I suspect the build guidelines for Animals (pg 108) MEANT to say "Animals also pay their current rank (much like primary powers) when advancing physical attributes or gaining natural abilities, while purchasing natural attack damage dice and body armor as additional attributes."
* In the build above, the asterisk denotes components bought as "primary powers."

3. Conceptualization: I mainly focused on the horse as a long-enduring plains runner, a working animal, and a prey animal. Therefore, I focused on predator awareness, Vigor and Stamina for running and labor, Might for work, and I de-prioritized combat. Specific manifestations include:

Might and Vigor of 12 (d12 level) is for work and working/running stamina. Large creatures get a die bump to both of these, so these levels seemed size-appropriate for the concept. Resolve is similarly elevated (in animal terms) to reflect perseverance of effort.

The "Quickness = 6, plus Speed 3, plus Surge 3" combination is an attempt to get a reasonable mix of a real horse's long-distance travel pace and sprinting pace without also juicing the horse's reflexes to something catlike. There are probably other ways to engineer this, but the above seems a reasonable first pass.

The Diehard and Toughness advantages are mostly to provide stamina for work and running endurance.
Similarly, Athletics is for work and jumping, and Acrobatics is for jumping and rodeo-esque contortions.

The Wary advantage and Enhanced Hearing and high Perception skill are prey-animal features to represent awareness of predators. Similarly, Insight is elevated for predator awareness. The Stealth exists to represent some ability to stay still and quiet.

Conversely, Logic is weak because of the "run into the burning barn" phenomenon, and I left Charisma alone just because none of the other animals had it bumped up - not even dogs.

For combat, I kept Prowess high enough to be a survivable animal, but nothing special. Similarly, I left Melee high enough to be threatening but lower than most of the other (predator) animals. I bought the damage die of a hoof up to d8 as an "additional attribute" per the build blurb. The AR values were similarly purchased to 1, kind of on principle vs what seems normal for animals.


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 Post subject: Re: Stats for horses?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:52 pm 
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With the Size adjustment, you only need to 'buy' Mi and Vi up to d10 (size bumps it to d12).
Passive stays at +4 (based on the Attribute Score of 8, not the die type). Saves 84 points in stats.

Rest looks fine and workable.

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 Post subject: Re: Stats for horses?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:55 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:49 pm
Posts: 64
Southernskies wrote:
With the Size adjustment, you only need to 'buy' Mi and Vi up to d10 (size bumps it to d12).
Passive stays at +4 (based on the Attribute Score of 8, not the die type). Saves 84 points in stats.


I've honestly been extremely unclear about how to apply the die bumps and penalties for size when building normal creatures. I mean, I understand how the sentences in the "creature size" section on page 89 read, but those principles don't appear to have been applied to the creatures in the book, and so I suspect they're meant more as modifiers when a creature CHANGES size (ala "Growth" and "Shrink" powers) rather than naturally.

Most of the animals in the "threats" section (pg 108-110) show little or no evidence of the die bumps or penalties. Examples:

Brown bear. Might d12, passive modifier (PM) +5. The only way to get a +5 passive modifier is with a stat of 12, minimum, which is a natural die of d12. Similarly, Vigor d10, PM +4 - again the PM is one that is only achievable with a stat that naturally gives a d10.

Great cat. Might d12, PM +4. COULD be a die bump. Unclear. Vigor d10, PM +4- definitely no die bump for Vigor. Also, if it didn't get the die bumps (or even if it did, really), where did all the points for the "Ultra-level exceptional threat" go?

Crocodile. Might d10, PM +3. COULD be a die bump. Unclear. Vigor d8, PM +3 - definitely no die bump for Vigor.

Elephant. Might d12d8, PM +7. Seems a conclusive die bump of at least +1. Vigor d10, PM +4 is definitely no die bump.

Cat. Might d4, PM +1. COULD be a die penalty, but needn't be.

Anyway, these mixed messages led me to buy the stats to the d12 level outright. That, plus the notion of a horse with a max lift of 400 lbs and a max drag of 800 lbs (i.e. one with a Might of 7 that's getting a die bump to d12) seemed too weak for a real horse.

I'm curious how the game designers meant the bumps to work. Any input on that, guys?


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 Post subject: Re: Stats for horses?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:28 pm 
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This was the case across all of the non-Medium size stat blocks.
It may also apply to the stats for Titan (pg186) where his Mi and Vi die are wrong based on the passives, but I haven't plugged him into my build spreadsheet to confirm yet.

See the unofficial Errata at:
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2658

As I come from an Arcanis:RPG background, the concepts were already understood and errors like this are easy to determine by eye.

Mi:7 does look a bit low (which is why I suggested Mi:8 for 500 lbs carry).
Based on the Wiki definition of Horsepower (note this is a calculation of energy, not carry capacity), 1 hp = 550 ft/lbs/s. so 500lbs of carry is 'good enough'. The Master Values Table doesn't translate well in to real-world physics (like most RPGs).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower

Not covered by Rotted Capes rulebook, is that quadrupeds have special rules in Arcanis:RPG (and most systems including D&Dx as well).
"Beast of Burden" trait (from Arcanis:RPG Bestiary I) adds 5 to Fortitude for carry. For Rotted Capes, applying +5 to Mi for determining carry would work fine as a rule and avoid stat inflation for combat purposes.
Applying that change, a Mi of 6 or even 5 is system viable.

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 Post subject: Re: Stats for horses?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:11 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:49 pm
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Southernskies wrote:
Mi:7 does look a bit low (which is why I suggested Mi:8 for 500 lbs carry).
Based on the Wiki definition of Horsepower (note this is a calculation of energy, not carry capacity), 1 hp = 550 ft/lbs/s. so 500lbs of carry is 'good enough'. The Master Values Table doesn't translate well in to real-world physics (like most RPGs).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower

Not covered by Rotted Capes rulebook, is that quadrupeds have special rules in Arcanis:RPG (and most systems including D&Dx as well).
"Beast of Burden" trait (from Arcanis:RPG Bestiary I) adds 5 to Fortitude for carry. For Rotted Capes, applying +5 to Mi for determining carry would work fine as a rule and avoid stat inflation for combat purposes.
Applying that change, a Mi of 6 or even 5 is system viable.


Thanks. I did check horsepower, but since it's an energy-per-unit-time measure, I ultimately didn't find it satisfying. I DID however just find this link on pulling contests: https://www.horseclicks.com/horse_advic ... carry-/283

According to that, the standard starting drag weight for a 2-horse team is 6,000 pounds, or 3,000 pounds each. That suggests that every competition horse is expected to have a max drag of at least 3,000 pounds, which translates to a Might between 12 and 13. The same article says the winners pulled 6,000 pounds each, suggesting a Might of 14 but not 15 at the high end.


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 Post subject: Re: Stats for horses?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:49 pm 
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Rotted Capes Max Lift and Max Push/Drag are 1:2 ratio for a medium bipedal creature (same as D&Dx), neither is close to real-world physics. The ratio should be more like 1:4 or 1:5 (more once friction is reduced, such as adding wheels) or some variant of square/cube law applied.

With an average weight around 1000 lbs (1/2 ton), a Mi:13 hero can lift a horse, while a Mi:8 hero can drag a horse.

The article you linked indicates a safe carry of 20% bodyweight for a horse (25% before health problems develop).

Mechanically, I'd still suggest Mi: 5-8 range with an Advantage of "Beast of Burden" covering the difference.

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LA:5E; Barbara Duran-Dellanov, Former Tribune, Fighter 4
LRC:OP; Seraphina "Flowerchild" Amakiir, Skill Hero


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 Post subject: Re: Stats for horses?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:49 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:49 pm
Posts: 64
Southernskies wrote:
Rotted Capes Max Lift and Max Push/Drag are 1:2 ratio for a medium bipedal creature (same as D&Dx), neither is close to real-world physics. The ratio should be more like 1:4 or 1:5 (more once friction is reduced, such as adding wheels) or some variant of square/cube law applied.

With an average weight around 1000 lbs (1/2 ton), a Mi:13 hero can lift a horse, while a Mi:8 hero can drag a horse.

The article you linked indicates a safe carry of 20% bodyweight for a horse (25% before health problems develop).

Mechanically, I'd still suggest Mi: 5-8 range with an Advantage of "Beast of Burden" covering the difference.


I do like the "Beast of Burden" kind of mechanic. And I honestly don't know how much a horse should be able to lift. The article does cite the 20% thing for regular carry. Max lift is clearly going to be higher. For cinematic reasons, I'd think one would want horses to be able to carry not only the rider but also the fallen comrade being rescued. A 500 lb carry would seem a little light just on a knight + armor + horse's armor + fallen knight basis. It might be accurate, but having to feather that line during play would get annoying. And it still leaves the question of how "carry" and "max lift" compare.

There's also the basic issue of what if the horse falls down. If a heavy horse weighs 2000 lbs, it better not have a 250 lb max lift or it'll never stand up again from a fall.

I suppose another way to try and gauge it would be to ask how a horse's kick compares to other kinds of weapons. 2H mace? Mattock? Hand-axe? Maybe we can back into a Might die from the combat side.


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 Post subject: Re: Stats for horses?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:41 pm 
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Rotten Capering wrote:
I suppose another way to try and gauge it would be to ask how a horse's kick compares to other kinds of weapons. 2H mace? Mattock? Hand-axe? Maybe we can back into a Might die from the combat side.


That was my concern with the way you were looking at Mi.

From ARG, a heavy warhorse does d6 (d12) and a light does d4 (d10).

Note that in RC, the large size bumps the Mi die, so a Heavy Warhorse would be Mi: 7 and a Light: Mi: 6

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LA:5E; Barbara Duran-Dellanov, Former Tribune, Fighter 4
LRC:OP; Seraphina "Flowerchild" Amakiir, Skill Hero


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 Post subject: Re: Stats for horses?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:19 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:49 pm
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Southernskies wrote:
From ARG, a heavy warhorse does d6 (d12) and a light does d4 (d10).

Note that in RC, the large size bumps the Mi die, so a Heavy Warhorse would be Mi: 7 and a Light: Mi: 6

Interesting. So, since I built the "horse" character as if the Might bump didn't apply (i.e. I bought the d12 manually), I was actually right about the target (d12) but may not have had to pay for it that way.

I should review the thread because maybe we went over this before, but one thing I don't like (or maybe just don't understand) is that the way the rules read, the die bump only impact rolls but not the underlying parameters. So since Might 7 normally means a 400-pound max lift and a d10 Might die, a "large creature" with Might 7 gets a bump to a d12 Might die, but still has a max lift of 400 pounds.

That's the other reason I've been feeling as though die bumps and die penalties are really meant for changes in size from a base that's built correctly, rather than as straight-up adjustments as part of the build. The Might 7 elephant that gets a d12d4 Might die but has a max lift of 400lbs and can't stand up after it sits down just bothers me.


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