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 Post subject: Re: Clarification on Team Attack
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:49 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:49 pm
Posts: 70
I don't think there is a consensus.

There is one camp (reflected by the earlier thread - viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2234) in which any number of allies can Team Attack, as long as each one is within one tick of another one. Once all the damage is in, the target rolls Vigor against the total damage sustained (i.e. not just what exceeds fortitude, but the total amount that exceeded AR).

The other camp is using the "only one ally" model, like:

First attack - Rolls 30 damage (vs AR of 5 and Fortitude of 20). 25 damage get past AR, so the target rolls vigor (because 25 > fortitude) and the TN is 25 (= total damage sustained that triggered the roll).

Second attack = Team Attack and lands 13 damage = 8 after AR. 8 adds to the previous 25, for a vigor roll at TN 33.

Third attack = Team Attack, but can only stack with Second Attack (not both allies, just the last one). Rolls 18 damage = 13 after AR. 13 adds 8 from the previous ally, for 21 total. 21 > 20, so roll Vigor with TN 21.

Etc.

There are probably other ways of doing it, too, but those seem to be the two camps so far.


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 Post subject: Re: Clarification on Team Attack
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:52 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:55 pm
Posts: 297
Hmm, this definitely needs to get clarified, especially for the situations for the Living Campaign. Can't have two different camps as it only adds confusion and inconsistency.

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 Post subject: Re: Clarification on Team Attack
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:05 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:49 pm
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EddieS wrote:
Hmm, this definitely needs to get clarified, especially for the situations for the Living Campaign. Can't have two different camps as it only adds confusion and inconsistency.


I nominate Team Attack as something for the FAQ/Errata.

On a related note, how about setting traps that are designed as Team Attacks? Can we apply them that way? For instance, four explosive charges planted in an area, with the intention of luring the enemies into it and then hitting everything with an Area-of-Effect (AoE) Energy Burst to not only damage the enemies but also set of the charges? Can we process the explosions of the charges with Team Attack mechanics? Or is that a no-no?


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 Post subject: Re: Clarification on Team Attack
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:13 pm 
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Rotten Capering wrote:
On a related note, how about setting traps that are designed as Team Attacks? Can we apply them that way? For instance, four explosive charges planted in an area, with the intention of luring the enemies into it and then hitting everything with an Area-of-Effect (AoE) Energy Burst to not only damage the enemies but also set of the charges? Can we process the explosions of the charges with Team Attack mechanics? Or is that a no-no?


Sound more like something better handled by a weapon die bump (+1 die bump for each additional explosive).
Once you get above d12, the weapon die goes up quite fast.

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 Post subject: Re: Clarification on Team Attack
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:47 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:49 pm
Posts: 70
Southernskies wrote:
Sound more like something better handled by a weapon die bump (+1 die bump for each additional explosive).
Once you get above d12, the weapon die goes up quite fast.


Interesting idea. How exactly would you handle that? I'm having trouble seeing the steps. Here are a few example scenarios I'm struggling with:

Scenario 1: There are 4 grenades/bombs/whatever planted in an area as a trap. The grenades have Material Strength (MS) 15 and 1 Hit, and will explode for d10 when destroyed. The enemies (Fortitude 20) have been lured into this area, and a Hero lobs an Energy Burst into the area to (a) damage the enemies and (b) set off the grenades. So, the sequence of events looks like:
1. Energy Burst. Roll attack. Player rolls 22 to hit. Enemies are hit. I assume grenades are hit too.
2. Hero rolls damage. Between damage and plot dice, the Hero rolls up 17 points of damage. Enemies do not suffer massive damage, but grenades are destroyed.
3. Grenades explode.
4. Grenade damage - several questions:
Q. Can the grenade damage add (via Team Attack) to the Hero's 17 Energy Burst damage?
Q. Does each grenade add to the total? Or are they applied sequentially?
Q. In Southernskies' "die bump" application (above), how is that working? d10 becomes d12 becomes d12d4 becomes d12d6? Or what?

Scenario 2: There are 4 grenades/bombs/whatever planted in an area as a trap. The grenades have MS 15 and 1 Hit, and will explode for d10 when destroyed. The enemies (Fortitude 20) have been lured into this area, where two heroes want to take them out. The first hero fires a bullet at one grenade and hits it for 10 (not enough to destroy it). The second hero then Team Attacks the grenade with an Energy Burst, dealing 12 damage to everything in the area. The combined damage is enough to destroy the grenade. The sequence of events then looks like this:
1. Bullet hits grenade #1 for 10 damage.
2. Team Attack Energy Burst hits grenade#1 and everything else for 12 damage.
Q. Does the combined 10 + 12 damage destroy the grenade? Or do items and MS not work that way?
3. Assuming the combined damage destroys the grenade, Grenade #1 explodes for 7 damage.
Q. Can the 7 damage from Grenade #1 add to the 12 damage from the Energy Burst to damage the enemies and also to damage the remaining 3 grenades, such that the remaining 3 grenades now also explode?
4. Assuming the combined damage allows Grenades 2-4 to explode, they go off.
Q. Does their damage stack with the Energy Burst and Grenade #1?

Curious how to handle this kind of thing, and whether (and how) Team Attack applies to this kind of daisy-chained trap setup.


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 Post subject: Re: Clarification on Team Attack
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:54 pm 
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I would handle the Hero's attacks and the environmental attacks as separate resolutions.

Scenario 1:
Depends upon the EiC generosity
1. Hero does 17 Stamina damage. Other Heroes can feed off this for Team Attacks.
2a. Explosives detonate. Base damage for frag grenade is d12 (d12). +3 Die bump for weapons becomes 5d8 (d12). See Melee Weapons table for how this bumps up. Really good for doing a single Wound to a Super-Z.
2b. Explosives detonate. EiC rules the die bump applies to Attribute instead, making it d12 (d12+d8). Less reliable than 2a, but 3 die of damage should reach Massive Damage against most Super-Zs.
2c. Explosives detonate. Roll grenade damage four times at d12 (d12). This will annihilate any non-Z (due to Stamina), but Super-Zs may walk away with no damage.
3. Team attacks only use the Hero's damage; Team Attack states "Ally's successful attack". The grenades are environmental and not an attack from the ally.

Scenario 2:
Note 1: Team Attack only applies for determining Massive Damage. Objects don't suffer Massive Damage (as they have their own rules; MS + Hits). EiC would probably require a Plot Die to do this.
Note 2: Again the exploding grenades are not an attack from the Hero (the Energy Blast is the attack).

This one gets messy and is best dealt with by the EiC when the trap is built. Without a prior decision (or lots of Plot Die). See Scenario 1 if the grenades are detonated.

Personally, it would be more reliable (and easier to rule) to make up a satchel charge of 4 grenades. Pull pin, throw (making it a Hero attack) and die bump weapon die (making 5d8 (d12) Stamina). Team Attack after the smoke clears.

Side note: With MS15 and 1 Hit, I would not want to carry grenades around. They would explode frequently due to Super-Zs throwing the same Energy Blast (burst) back at your team.
On a practical matter, grenades are designed not to explode easily without triggering the detonator (even in the movies, all the explosives tend to be in a single bag when making a bigger bang).

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 Post subject: Re: Clarification on Team Attack
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:23 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:23 am
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Location: Miami Florida
Ok

I'm chiming in here...

Team Attack is just that... an Team Attack if one hero just happens to roll high enough to deal a wound on his own that "extra wound" is lost... because all the damage is added together to deal a wound to the target.

Now the massive damage will still result in a knockback if any of the heroes were dealing Bludgeoning attacks or Kinetic/Force attacks. (and may result in Massive Knockback)

Now the E.I.C. may always allow the hero who rolled enough damage to deal a wound to spend a plot die to inflict an extra wound, but that's their call. (I have done it in home games when the player can give me a bad ass description of why)

and yes team attack is between Ally's, not independent equipment or set explosives.

Now the E.I.C. can always allow the player to spend a plot die to bend this rule as well well... I can totally see it as a big story moment that deserves it.


as for this

Quote:
Personally, it would be more reliable (and easier to rule) to make up a satchel charge of 4 grenades. Pull pin, throw (making it a Hero attack) and die bump weapon die (making 5d8 (d12) Stamina). Team Attack after the smoke clears.


Agreed, that's the way I would handle it as well.

I hope this cleared things up.

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 Post subject: Re: Clarification on Team Attack
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:25 pm 
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PCI_StatMonkey wrote:
Team Attack is just that... an Team Attack if one hero just happens to roll high enough to deal a wound on his own that "extra wound" is lost... because all the damage is added together to deal a wound to the target.

Just to clean that up:
Hero#1: Basic Attack, Devastating Attack or anything else (independent test for Massive Damage immediately). Can inflict 1 Wound (+ bonus from Crit if it occurs).
Hero#2: Team Attack - Add the Stamina damage from the two attacks together to test for Massive Damage. Can only inflict 1 Wound (unless you also Crit).

If Attack 1 doesn't get resolved immediately before Hero#2 has their turn, it can get very messy to resolve, especially if you are fighting multiple non-common foes. Hero's need every Massive Damage check they can generate.
We've been playing this way and its still a struggle to get the Wounds onto the Zs.

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 Post subject: Re: Clarification on Team Attack
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:51 pm 
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Southernskies wrote:
If Attack 1 doesn't get resolved immediately before Hero#2 has their turn, it can get very messy to resolve, especially if you are fighting multiple non-common foes. Hero's need every Massive Damage check they can generate.
We've been playing this way and it's still a struggle to get the Wounds onto the Zs.


Your missing part of the equation, it's very much an IF/THEN scenario

if the first attacker scores a wound, the 2nd attacker can always abort the team attack and let the original strike stand, unless they want to "pile on" for possible knockback.

Also starting heroes will always have issues with Super Z's... it's purposeful, a powerful Super Z is not a "monster of the week" but something the heroes meet at the end of a good storyline. they could and should always fight a weaker Super Z's

In my home games the heroes did not face a super Z for the first 8 or so games, there are enough "strange" zombies to worry about... and a well played Ninjaz can feel like a super Z. The heroes in my game named one because it was such a pain in the @#! and always had an escape root planned and used zombies to cover its escapes.

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 Post subject: Re: Clarification on Team Attack
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:38 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:55 pm
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PCI_StatMonkey wrote:
Ok

I'm chiming in here...

Team Attack is just that... an Team Attack if one hero just happens to roll high enough to deal a wound on his own that "extra wound" is lost... because all the damage is added together to deal a wound to the target.

Now the massive damage will still result in a knockback if any of the heroes were dealing Bludgeoning attacks or Kinetic/Force attacks. (and may result in Massive Knockback)

Now the E.I.C. may always allow the hero who rolled enough damage to deal a wound to spend a plot die to inflict an extra wound, but that's their call. (I have done it in home games when the player can give me a bad ass description of why)

and yes team attack is between Ally's, not independent equipment or set explosives ...


Pedro, just to further clarify/inquire -

Team attack can based on several members or just two?
Example -
a) 1st Character does his attack and does damage (no wounds). 2nd character follows up and does Team Attack to pile up damage (still manages no wounds). 3rd character has to start the chain over with a standard attack (followed up by a team attack from the 4th character. Wash, Rinse, Repeat).
- or -
b) Same as above, but 3rd character can follow up with a Team attack (and so on with the 4th, 5th, etc character).

Team attack ceases regardless of case above the instant a wound is dealt (unless that wound was caused by a crit).

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"When you do something right, it's as if you didn't do it at all ..."

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