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 Post subject: Clarification on Team Attack
PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:47 pm 

Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:49 am
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I saw a post from 2016 that talked about team attack with three individuals stacking damage to determine massive damage... I believe the example listed as attack 1 inflicts 10, attacker 2 inflicts 8, and attacker 3 inflicts 12 or something along those lines.

We came across a situation similar where attacker two had exploding dice and inflicted 24 points of damage which by itself did massive damage. Which leads to the , if you are doing a team attack do you still stack all three attacks for one massive damage effect when one of the three attackers did massive damage in their attack alone?

At the time I ruled it as "you are attacking as a team, so it is still treated as one attack to inflict massive damage." The benefit being that the target has a more challenging target number on their vigor test.

I am also presuming in the above situation that attacker three, seeing that massive damage would be inflicted by the first two attackers could opt out of the team attack and attempt a solo attack.

Thanks,
Barry


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 Post subject: Re: Clarification on Team Attack
PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:43 pm 
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The post is probably this one: viewtopic.php?p=25261#p25261 which has a very detailed example.

Bringing it back to your question; each attack separately determines the chance of Massive Damage.

vs Fort:20
Attack#1: 10 stamina / no MD
Attack#2: 10+8 stamina / no MD (If using a Firearm with Impact +2 or more, a MD TN18 occurs)
Attack#3: 8+12 stamina / MD roll, TN20

If someone manages to 'single shot' the Massive Damage Threshold, a successful Team Attack will automatically also do Massive Damage if at least 1 more stamina (after AR) is caused.

As long as the Team Attack damage 'pool' is greater than 6 (the +6 Stamina from Devastating Attack or Headshot), a Team Attack is the better option. It gets messier to determine the best choice once you include Impact from firearms, but the Team Attack is still a better choice due to the higher TN# on Massive Damage.

In a recent game, we lost three PCs due to being unable to stack the damage high enough. When we managed to hit Massive Damage (through Headshot, Devastating Attack or Team Attack), the TN was minimal (18 I think for this Super-Z). Thus, it only needed 13+ to avoid a Wound (7+ when hit by a Heavy Revolver with the +6 Impact). Out of maybe 6 Massive Damage rolls, it failed one... and then ate us.

This brought home a player problem; firearms are good at creating Massive Damage rolls, but the TN isn't high enough on its own to reliably Wound Super-Zs.

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LARG; Astra Tonsoria Ursula val¤Dellanov, Martial Former Tribune, Sword Sage II, T2.4
LA:5E; Barbara Duran-Dellanov, Former Tribune, Fighter 1
LRC:OP; Seraphina "Flowerchild" Amakiir, Skill Hero


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 Post subject: Re: Clarification on Team Attack
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:27 am 

Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:49 pm
Posts: 50
Another meaningful consideration when choosing between Team Attack and Devastating Attack/ Headshot is how good a shot your Hero is, since Devastating Attack and Headshot are both at -6 to hit, whereas a Team Attack can be an attack with no to-hit penalty.

I like the notion of subsequent Heroes having the option of using Team Attack to increase the TN of the Vigor roll even after the Massive Damage threshold has been reached. I imagine there's some table etiquette that should apply so that you don't get something like:

1. Hero A has two exploding dice and does 24 damage, triggering Massive Damage.
2. Super-Z rolls vigor and says, "Made it. No wound."
3. Hero B says "Hang on. What if I Team Attack and add my damage to his?"
4. ...

Dealing with that should be easy, though.

To the OP's point,
a) I like letting Heroes B, C, D, etc use Team Attack to elevate the Vigor roll TN.
b) I do think Heroes B, C, D, etc do have the option of letting the earlier damage resolve and then do solo attacks instead.


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 Post subject: Re: Clarification on Team Attack
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:13 am 
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Each attack is *independently calculated*. You don't stack all of the attacks together, only the previous successful hit and the current Team Attack.

If the previous hit did 0 stamina (after AR), Team Attack is pointless for the next person (as the 'previous successful hit' won't add anything).

If you have 5 Heroes, the first one does Devastating Attack, the other other four do Team Attack, feeding off the previous hits (in order).

The *optimal* route is for the best shot/biggest hitter to go first, potentially get Massive Damage on their own and give a high base for the next successful hit. If you have a few low-skill Heroes, at least one of them should hit, giving a second Massive Damage roll (with an even higher TN).
5 successful attacks = 5 possible Massive Damage rolls.

Devastating Attack#1; 20 Stamina = TN20
Team Attack#1; 10 Stamina = TN30 (20+10)
Team Attack#2; 10 Stamina = TN20 (10+10)
Team Attack#3; 5 Stamina = n/a
Team Attack#4; 18 Stamina = TN23 (5+18)
etc

Each attack needs to do as much damage as possible, as 2d10+1d8e, needing only TN-5 to avoid a Wound, isn't that difficult, especially once Plot Die start getting used by the Super-Z. The more Massive Damage rolls you cause, the more chance they will start failing.

eg. A full-auto heavy machine gun (SH) can easily cause 40+ Stamina in an attack (against low AR targets). It is still only one Massive Damage roll. The next Hero can feed off that (getting an easy second Massive Damage roll using Team Attack). That's still only 2 potential Wounds against something that may have 5-7 Wounds (and ignores Stamina).
A Hero taking that is Vanquished by Stamina in 1-2 hits. You can guarantee that the Super-Z will take out the HMG user first.

If you have 6+ Heroes (or frequent use of Celerity) and the right Clock alignment, you can daisy chain around to the first Hero being able to Team Attack off the last Hero's attack.

Impact from firearms increases the chance of triggering a Massive Damage roll, but doesn't add to the TN (making it more likely of success).

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LARG; Astra Tonsoria Ursula val¤Dellanov, Martial Former Tribune, Sword Sage II, T2.4
LA:5E; Barbara Duran-Dellanov, Former Tribune, Fighter 1
LRC:OP; Seraphina "Flowerchild" Amakiir, Skill Hero


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 Post subject: Re: Clarification on Team Attack
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:52 am 

Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:49 pm
Posts: 50
I wonder if the earlier thread mentioned by the OP was this one:
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2234

In that thread, three attacks were clearly being combined via Team Attack into a single attack.

The alternate, "Team Attack only stacks with the immediately previous attack, and not all of them" interpetation is interesting. It would not have occurred to me to use Team Attack that way, and I don't see anything in the way the rules are written that would mean it can't work that way.

That said, it makes me uncomfortable in that it seems a little broken. I say "broken" because it basically double-counts each attack such that each Team Attack can ultimately contribute to two Wounds.

In the example given:

Devastating Attack#1; 20 Stamina = TN20 (maybe Wound #1)
Team Attack#1; 10 Stamina = TN30 (20+10) (maybe Wound #2 - thus the earlier Devastating Attack#1 is contributing to both Wound #1 AND Wound #2)
Team Attack#2; 10 Stamina = TN20 (10+10) (maybe Wound #3 - thus the earlier Team Attack#1 is contributing to both Wound #2 AND Wound #3)
...
And so on.

Again, I don't see anything in the way Team Attack is written that would disallow that interpretation. It just makes me uncomfortable to create a system whereby five Heroes can each hit with individual damage that is not enough for a Wound, and yet grind a 4-Wound Super-Z to flinders in less than 5 ticks. Plus, I don't want to be on the receiving end of it when the EIC decides turnabout is fair play and five abominations Team Attack party members.

Definitely an interesting idea. I'm just personally afraid to run with it.


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 Post subject: Re: Clarification on Team Attack
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:27 pm 
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The original post is from their second EiC (Billy) of a Fandible Actual Play podcast that is quite a while ago now and listening to the context is helpful. They were learning the rules and had a lot of issues working this stuff out on the fly (there was 5 mins or so of dialogue the first time they tried to work it out fighting the Super-Z, Glory Hog). Their first EiC (Jesus) made an interpretation on the fly and they stuck with it as a group for a while (consistency is more important than correct interpretations).
See the separate EiC discussion of the same game: viewtopic.php?p=25261#p25261

Massive Damage is only determined once per attack. You either make it or you don't. You can't cause more than 1 Wound per attack without also causing a Critical Hit.

And yes, two hits contributing to a single Massive Damage roll is what Team Attack is specifically there for. Grab 4 Hero sheets and try it out solo vs Flaming Fist and then against Titan; you'll see just how much the Heroes *need* to be doing this. Once they understand, they will also take care to avoid allowing Super-Zs to do it back to them.

Look at Titan's stats. A solo Hero is not going to get Massive Damage on their own without a lot of luck. Between his AR10, Fortitude 26 and Invulnerability/Physical 9 (giving +5 to MD threshold), a firearm or melee attack needs to do 41 Stamina in a single hit (less Impact from firearms, burst fire or full auto isn't going to help a lot here due to the AR10; except with SuperHeavy ammo). A Might 16 Hero can hit him over the head with a Subway Car for 10d8 (Mi); nothing less is going to even slow him down 1v1. On the plus side, once you *do* manage to hit the threshold, a Wound is likely but not guaranteed due to the high TN.
Alternately, targeting him with Energy Attacks is easier (AR5, Fortitude 26) but still needs 31 Stamina damage to get there. The average Delta will do maybe 15 Stamina in a single attack, Energy Blast 7, Quickness d10 (d10, d10e). Hitting them with multi-ton objects works better.

As an EiC, you won't get to use Team Attack a lot; deadheads aren't smart enough (and usually just Mob up for the bonuses). A Super-Z may Team Attack off the back of the deadheads damage, which is not particularly dangerous if there is only one. A wolf-pack may present a problem, but by definition the members of a wolf-pack are individually weak and can be picked off by the Heroes.

Whatever your local interpretation, tell the Heroes at the start of the game so they can include it in their tactics.

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LARG; Astra Tonsoria Ursula val¤Dellanov, Martial Former Tribune, Sword Sage II, T2.4
LA:5E; Barbara Duran-Dellanov, Former Tribune, Fighter 1
LRC:OP; Seraphina "Flowerchild" Amakiir, Skill Hero


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 Post subject: Re: Clarification on Team Attack
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:47 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:49 pm
Posts: 50
I totally agree that Team Attack is an essential tool for Heroes to be able to cope with larger threats like Titan and the like.

The original poster (OP) mentioned a post he'd seen earlier. Specifically, "I saw a post from 2016 that talked about team attack with three individuals stacking damage to determine massive damage... I believe the example listed as attack 1 inflicts 10, attacker 2 inflicts 8, and attacker 3 inflicts 12 or something along those lines."

I think the post he's talking about is likely the one I linked earlier (viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2234) since the date and numbers match the ones he cited.

I think the question under discussion, though, is how exactly Team Attack is supposed to work mechanics-wise.

Massive Damage is normally only determined once per attack. With Team Attack, I think Massive Damage is actually supposed to be determined LESS than once per attack (like, once for two attacks, or three attacks, or however many attacks went into the "Team" pile of damage).

My concern about double-counting works like this. From the ongoing example:

1. Devastating Attack#1; 20 Stamina = TN20

Saying "TN20" implies that these 20 damage exceeded the target's Fortitude and are therefore used to make a Massive Damage roll with a Target Number (TN) of 20. If this roll happens, then these 20 damage have now been applied to one Massive Damage roll.

2. Team Attack#1; 10 Stamina = TN30 (20+10)

Saying "TN30 (20+10)" implies that the 10 damage from this Hero's attack is being added to the 20 from the previous attacker to exceed the target's Fortitude and trigger a Massive Damage roll with TN 30. If the previous roll happened, though, AND this roll also happens, then the 20 points of damage from the Devastating Attack made earlier have now been counted TWICE, because those same 20 points of damage have been applied against the target's Fortitude two separate times.

That's the part I'm uncomfortable with.

For myself, I think the mechanic presented in the thread I linked above is what was intended - two or more Heroes add their damage together and then make a single Massive Damage (i.e. Vigor) roll once they're done Team Attacking.

The main question I have is: What kinds of attacks can be Team Attacks? Everything? Basic Attacks only? Headshots? Devastating Attacks? What are the restrictions? Are there any?


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 Post subject: Re: Clarification on Team Attack
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:10 pm 
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Team Attack is a Combat Manoeuvre on its own, so technically cannot be combined with anything else as written.

Try it from the opposite direction. Attack#1 hits and 'chooses' to defer the Massive Damage check. The other Heroes all miss their Team Attacks; how/when do you resolve it?

pg92 wrote:
Add your ally's damage to your own for the sole purpose of determining if your attack dealt Massive Damage

Team attack itself is fairly clear. The problem is actually the wording of the Massive Damage rule.
pg95 wrote:
...must attempt a Vigor Action Roll against the damage suffered (after Armor Rating);


You can treat the previous damage the same as Impact and only use it to determine if a Massive Damage roll is required and the TN is the Stamina inflicted in *that* attack.
The problem becomes that Team Attack is fairly useless doing this, as the TN required will be so low as to need a fumbled Vigor roll from the target. Remember, avoiding the Wound only needs TN-4.

We've been playing it as I posted earlier; and still struggle to get Wounds onto the target (by the time we encounter a Super-Z, the EiC often has quite a few Plot Points piled up to spend on Vigor rolls). The Super-Z often only has AR 5, Fort 18 and d8 Vigor! The most generous interpretation is far from an 'I win' button for the Heroes.

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LARG; Astra Tonsoria Ursula val¤Dellanov, Martial Former Tribune, Sword Sage II, T2.4
LA:5E; Barbara Duran-Dellanov, Former Tribune, Fighter 1
LRC:OP; Seraphina "Flowerchild" Amakiir, Skill Hero


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 Post subject: Re: Clarification on Team Attack
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:48 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:49 pm
Posts: 50
I hear ya. A lot of the little details aren't available, but seem important.

Can a Hero Team Attack with a Headshot? Burst? Any firearms? It's not clear. As observed, Team Attack is a Combat Maneuver of its own and therefore can't be combined with others, but it includes an attack within itself and the parameters around that attack are unclear. Maybe it doesn't matter. I'd feel a little weird trying to use a Guarded Attack as my Team Attack or some such, though.

When to resolve the damage? Good question. Also unclear. My intuition has been doing it when new Team Attack damage stops landing in the pile, but that's not written anywhere.

The way I've been conceptualizing it is really like a group attack. Hero A does a bit of damage, and Hero B does a bit of damage, and Hero C, D, Etc do damage, and because it's simultaneous enough and done with the intention of being coordinated, it hits the target like one big whack the villain feels instead of multiple small hits that can be ignored.

Like when Iron Man, Vision and Thor melt Ultron: https://youtu.be/0jpNYG5AoAI?t=150

The plot dice problem sounds like a real one. In that sense, it might actually be better if more than two Heroes can combine for a Team Attack, because it might boost the TN beyond something that's easily overcome by plot dice.

Anyway, the discussion is useful.


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 Post subject: Re: Clarification on Team Attack
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:03 am 
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Melting Ultron is probably a better indicator of doing a lot of Wounds in a short time.

Guarded Attack is not a Combat Manoeuvre, so that is fine (but you're unlikely to hit anything). One of the local players does it frequently in Arcanis (same Action system).

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LARG; Astra Tonsoria Ursula val¤Dellanov, Martial Former Tribune, Sword Sage II, T2.4
LA:5E; Barbara Duran-Dellanov, Former Tribune, Fighter 1
LRC:OP; Seraphina "Flowerchild" Amakiir, Skill Hero


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