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 Post subject: Firearms quesitons
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 6:57 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:44 pm
Posts: 142
Location: Cajun Country
So I've been digging into the rules recently as I'm making a Fallout themed game to play with my daughter. It has lead think a lot about the mundane weapons and thus firearms.

How is anyone expected to make a (really) long ranged attack? Using the sights and/or a weapon with extended ranged you can attack out a certain number of areas without penalty, but most rifles fire significantly further than what those provide. So for example a super heavy round at or near maximum range would have over -150 penalty. I don't think there are enough bonuses to stack to make that shot even possible to attain.

For attacks just beyond the range of a sight do the penalties start for beyond the sight's range or do they calculate normally regardless of the sight?

When a long arm shares an ammo type with a pistol shouldn't it have a longer range? In the case of Light ammo a .22 rifle should shoot further than a .22 pistol, but are using the same round. For simplicity those being the same shouldn't be an issue. However for Heavy rounds I think it is a bit more of a disparity. Based on the weapons involved a rifle round that is Heavy would be along the lines of a .308 or 7.62x54R and should fire further than an Assault round, rather than about 1/3 the range. Medium rounds also have this issue, though I'm not sure exactly what rounds these would represent unless it is pistol rounds from a rifle.


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 Post subject: Re: Firearms quesitons
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:45 pm 
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Keeping in mind, this is from an Arcanis perspective (but same core rule system):

Range Increments and Maximum Range are not quite synonymous. Each range increment steps down the Attribute die until you hit the d4 minimum (and a maximum static penalty of -5); which you keep out to max range.

Arcanis example weapon:
* Prowess d10, Quickness d12, skill +5
* Flintlock Rifle. 60' Range Increment, 1600' Maximum Range, 2d12 damage.
0-60'; Attack: 2d10+1d10e+5, Damage: 2d12+1d12e
61-120'; Attack: 2d10+1d8e+4, Damage: 2d12+1d10e
121-180'; Attack: 2d10+1d6e+3, Damage: 2d12+1d8e
181-240'; Attack: 2d10+1d4e+2, Damage: 2d12+1d6e
241-300'; Attack: 2d10+1d4e+1, Damage: 2d12+1d4e
301-1600'; Attack: 2d10+1d4e+0, Damage: 2d12+1d4e

You'll need to check your rulebook for the equivalent information, but that should give you a baseline of what to look for.

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 Post subject: Re: Firearms quesitons
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 3:49 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:44 pm
Posts: 142
Location: Cajun Country
well range is measured in areas, kinda of a fluid measurement, and they act as the range increments and max range is measured in areas.
I never found a cap on maximum penalty, it actually took a while to find how the penalty was calculated too, that is why I'm wondering if I missed it or it got left out. I would need to check on the damage reduction, I don't recall seeing it, but it is likely there.


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 Post subject: Re: Firearms quesitons
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:48 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2016 1:41 pm
Posts: 38
I don't usually care too much about distance and the like. Most of the time, I'll tell my players if they're out of range or in range - but occasionally if the player really wants to make a shot, I have to calculate it. So...

Honestly, I think this falls into 'GM Decision'. The weapon list isn't as realistic as some games - but it also isn't as bogged down as some games when it comes to extending range and the like. I think the confusion really lies right now for things such as Super Heavy range which has a very huge range (200!).

Honestly, I would say Super Heavy most likely gets to hand wave the negatives. Anything within those 200 blocks that isn't obscured can be hit without penalty. And after that, you start adding the negatives.

Again, this is just my GM ruling... When a weapon as the 'Extended Range' quality - that means they get to add up to 20 more 'blocks'. So a Hunting Rifle using heavy ammo gets a range of 42 (22 for the normal range, +20 for the Extended Range Quality). The Super Heavy gets a range of 220 (200 normally, 20 for extension). It isn't the perfect call but it's simple enough for me to wrap my head around.


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 Post subject: Re: Firearms quesitons
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 10:56 am 

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:44 pm
Posts: 142
Location: Cajun Country
I'm not a fan of the hand wave style of GMing, too many bad experiences with it. I like the game to be consistent so players have a good idea if they could achieve something or not, as always unknown circumstances and luck play a factor too. With that in mind I basically made up my own rules for it.

Range penalty is half the number of areas, rounded down. So it stays consistent with other existing rules and scales it down, also pretty easy to calculate.

For the sights they effectively reduce the penalty by their associated number of areas. so the 10 area scope reduces the penalty by 5 the 20 area by 10, obviously with a min of 0 and still having issues with less than 5 areas causing a penalty. I plan on adding another scope at the high and low end with some tweaks. High end scope would be 40 areas but has penalties for less than 20 areas. The Low end would only go out 4 areas but have no penalties for being too close, just a slight reduction in penalty for money.

That would bring down the penalties so a focused character with specialized gear to reduce the penalties and planned out circumstances could make those really long shots.


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 Post subject: Re: Firearms quesitons
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 7:20 am 
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Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:23 am
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Location: Miami Florida
just keep in mind the rules are meant to be Cinematic not realistic...

and in all honesty, as long as you have a good relationship with your players and are seen as a fair and even-handed GM "hand waving" is totally acceptable and sometimes even a preferred method when attempting to tell some stories

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 Post subject: Re: Firearms quesitons
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 6:35 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:06 am
Posts: 868
Back onto this, I've been trying to find the (obscure) references to ranges and how to read them.

Pg86 Attacking at Range wrote:
Heroes suffer no penalties when firing at a target within the same or adjacent areas. For each area beyond the range of the weapon used, they suffer a -1 penalty to hit.


This... doesn't read very clearly. Powers have a range defined by the Power Rank; firearms have a fixed range.

When combined with Extended Range, to give no penalty out to range 20, the weapon range of most rifles is already longer than this as written. For the average combat, Extended Range is really bad (and badly worded).

Extended Range wrote:
...no penalties for attacking targets farther than 4 areas away, up to a maximum of 20 areas. If you use such a weapon to attack someone within 4 areas you suffer double the penalties for firing at range and receive a -2 penalty when firing at targets in the same area.

So for a Rifle (Assault ammo), R quality:
Range
0 / -2
1 /+0
2 /-2
3 /-4
4 /-6
5-20 / +0
21-60 / +0
61+ /-1 and goes down per area.

Possible Fixes:
Rewrite Extended Range to:
"The weapon suffers -2 per area less than 5 (making -10 penalty in the same area) and no penalty between 5 and 200 areas (out to the normal maximum range of the weapon)."

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LARG; Astra Tonsoria Ursula val¤Dellanov, Martial Former Tribune, Sword Sage II, T2.4
LA:5E; Barbara Duran-Dellanov, Former Tribune, Fighter 1
LRC:OP; Seraphina "Flowerchild" Amakiir, Skill Hero


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