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 Post subject: Re: Clarification on Team Attack
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:20 am 

Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:49 pm
Posts: 47
I mean, like I said, there's nothing in the rulebook that says the many-wounds-in-a-short-time interpretation is improper. It just strikes me as broken.

Strictly speaking, you could actually do it exactly like before, except allow more damage to stack than just two people. This because when a Hero uses Team Attack, he adds the ally's damage to his own for Massive Damage purposes.

So it could be like:

1. Hero 1 does Dev.Attack, hit for 20. Resolve damage. Roll Vigor, TN 20.
2. Hero 2 does Team Attack. Hit for 10. Add Ally's (Hero 1's) 20 for total of 30. Roll Vigor, TN 30.
3. Hero 3 does Team Attack. Hit for 10. Add Ally's (Hero 2's) 30 for total of 40. Roll Vigor, TN 40.
4. And so on.

Since each Team Attack adds the Ally's total to his own, the next Team Attack might take the current Hero's aggregate total to add to his own, making for larger TNs and addressing the Plot Dice problem.

That still feels like too much to me, but hey, the book doesn't say it can't happen.

As for Guarded Attack, it's listed with the Combat Maneuvers, so I'm pretty sure it is one. I actually like it quite a bit. I'm also pretty sure I shouldn't be allowed to make Guarded Devastating Attacks and the like. If making Guarded Attacks as Team Attacks is legal, I'll totally do it.


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 Post subject: Re: Clarification on Team Attack
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:16 am 
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No. You only get to add the damage from one ally ("an ally's", singular, not "an allies" or "all allies", plural), not all of them (Stacking rules). Each Hero is only doing one set of Stamina damage for whatever attack type they have made.

As a *very* generous interpretation, you could allow the Hero to choose *which* ally's damage they use (as long as they are still on the same tick or next tick).


My bad on Guarded; in Arcanis it is a modifier, not a manoeuvre on its own. Losing the Attribute die on an attack is still bad against anything with a decent Avoidance.

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LRC:OP; Seraphina "Flowerchild" Amakiir, Skill Hero


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 Post subject: Re: Clarification on Team Attack
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:34 am 

Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:49 am
Posts: 9
Rotten Capering wrote:
I wonder if the earlier thread mentioned by the OP was this one:
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2234

In that thread, three attacks were clearly being combined via Team Attack into a single attack.


Yes that was the original reference.

After a lengthy discussion (and one of the players interpretation) we executed as SouthernSkies referenced where each single attack chained on the previous one as a stand-alone attack.

Rotten Capering wrote:
... five Heroes can each hit with individual damage that is not enough for a Wound, and yet grind a 4-Wound Super-Z to flinders in less than 5 ticks.


This is similar to what happened. By chaining 4 players whittled down the Z by 3 wounds in 8 ticks (went back and walked through the roll20 logs). Two of the damage rolls were maxed out and the Z had two very bad rolls on vigor tests. The rolls were so bad (over 10 points below the stacked damage) it didnt make sense to use the Plot Dice.

With this said, given SouthernSkies experience with the chaining was this a fluke? Its a given part of the quick take down is my lack of experience in running this system.

Also, is it normal for combat rounds to flow so quickly; I played Exalted for two years and while a single attack took 30 minutes to run through the 10 steps and assorted sub-steps, combat was typically over in 12 to 24 ticks.

By the way, great discussion above. Gave me lots to mull over.


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 Post subject: Re: Clarification on Team Attack
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:20 am 

Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:49 pm
Posts: 47
I think they designed the game to try and keep combat moving along. I don't know Exalted, but I've played games that you almost need a laptop to play. This is certainly faster, and I think it's on purpose.

Glad you guys found a Team Attack interpretation that works for your game. Without official guidance, we can't really know the "right" interpretation, so finding something that works is what matters.

Being able to take down super-Zs really fast will definitely be nice for the players. It'll be ugly if they're on the receiving end of the same mechanic. And I suppose it'll be rough on the EIC if his main villains can go from healthy to destroyed in the time between their own actions.

I can't speak to whether it's a fluke. It's probably very dependent on the strength of the Super-Z. In the system you're using (where the max Team size is 2 Heroes), targets where two Heroes worth of damage is regularly enough to do Massive Damage can be ground down pretty fast, and targets where three or more Heroes worth of damage are necessary may well be nigh impossible to take down.

For example, Southernskies cited Titan's stats in an earlier post. Two Heroes Team Attacking may well be inadequate to breach that guy's defenses. If the Team Attack system doesn't allow a thrid or fourth or whatever Hero to add damage to the mix, then targets like that will be really hard to take down even though weaker targets go down in just a handful of ticks. It'll be up to the EIC to keep his villains in the sweet spot where they're tough enough to be challenging but easy enough to be beatable. How wide or narrow that range is will be sensitive to how many Heroes are allowed to contribute damage toward a single Vigor roll.


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 Post subject: Re: Clarification on Team Attack
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:16 am 
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In both ARG and Rotted Capes, most combats are over in 24 ticks. Anything that goes longer is either lots of foes, very high defenses or *really* bad die rolls. The system is designed to keep players paying attention; not "I've rolled, now I'm going for pizza" disengagement. Dynamic responses to the flow of combat determine overall success.

3 wounds in 8 ticks is a very good run of luck for the Heroes. The combination of maxed damage (it never truly 'maxes' due to exploding Attribute) and very poor Vigor rolls is unusual, more work is usually required.
But that is *exactly* what teamwork and Team Attack is there for. 4 players working together can take down tough opponents... if they can break average at the right time. If you ran the combat again, I would bet the fight would be a lot tougher.

The next big question is: can your team deal with a large Mob of deadheads? Different tactics, since Common foes are automatically killed without a Vigor roll.

Our table has had some very shocking runs of both Action Rolls and damage in the past (14 ticks of combat; not a single Action Roll above 10... on 2d10+1d10e...). It is significant when the table can hit *average*.

The last game I ran (ARG system, similar combat rules), they broke that average and slaughtered the 'boss fight' in 15 ticks. It had every advantage; high Avoidance, high AR, precast spells, the works. It just happened to be the night everything worked for the players (opening Crit with a shortsword, two more Wounds from high damage rolls).

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LA:5E; Barbara Duran-Dellanov, Former Tribune, Fighter 1
LRC:OP; Seraphina "Flowerchild" Amakiir, Skill Hero


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 Post subject: Re: Clarification on Team Attack
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:35 pm 

Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:49 am
Posts: 9
Thanks again. Very insightful responses!


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 Post subject: Re: Clarification on Team Attack
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:21 am 

Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:49 pm
Posts: 47
Question: For everyone's various Team Attack mechanics, how do they work when you're fighting against rival humans and supers, instead of against super-Zs?

I ask because if we're fighting living people, then the stamina damage does actually accumulate on the target and impact the target's health.

Using the earlier scenario, for example, how much stamina damage do you end up putting on the target? For instance:

1. Devastating Attack: 20 damage, TN20. 20 stamina damage on target.
2. Team attack: 10 damage, TN30. Does this add 10 stamina damage or 30?
3. Team attack: 10 damage, TN20. Does this add 10 or 20?
4. Etc.

Curious how people play it.


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 Post subject: Re: Clarification on Team Attack
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:51 pm 
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Example used:
1. 20 Stamina
2. 10 Stamina
3. 10 Stamina
The amount of Stamina inflicted by each attack is separate to determining if Massive Damage occurs.


Exactly the same as fighting Super-Zs. Its less critically important, as for 'normal' non-common humans they generally run out of Stamina long before Wounds (1 wound per 50 stamina is a not-unusual ratio). Common humans tend to have Stamina very close to their Fortitude, so it rarely comes up for them.

Burst Fire from a 20mm Vulcan on a non-Z villain is brutal (60+ stamina... after AR). :twisted:
[for the technical minded: Large MG, SH ammo, Enhanced Attack/Enhanced Weapon 1 = 3d8 bullets]

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LARG; Astra Tonsoria Ursula val¤Dellanov, Martial Former Tribune, Sword Sage II, T2.4
LA:5E; Barbara Duran-Dellanov, Former Tribune, Fighter 1
LRC:OP; Seraphina "Flowerchild" Amakiir, Skill Hero


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 Post subject: Re: Clarification on Team Attack
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:09 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:49 pm
Posts: 47
Yikes. I would think that cannon would make a mess of a super-Z, too. Vehicle-mounted weapons FTW!


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 Post subject: Re: Clarification on Team Attack
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:29 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:55 pm
Posts: 279
So final concensus is -

1) Only one ally can follow up with a Team attack.

2) Target makes Vi rolls vs. damage taken surpassing its Fort by first attack, Team attack damage stacks onto this for Massive damage attempt and forcing the target to make a 2nd Vi roll.

Example - Lets say Target has AR 6, 18 Stamina.

- 1st atk inflicts 25 damage, subtract AR and damage becomes 19 which is dam. above the target's Fort, forcing the first Vi roll at a TN:19. It suffers Massive Damage and is now Staggered. Failed Roll means Target becomes Stunned and can be knocked back (or worse, suffering a Wound on top of it all). Let say Target makes his roll and is only Staggered.

- 2nd attack is declared as a Team Attack and inflicts 30 damage. Subtract AR and it becomes 24 damage, 6 above the target's Fort, now forcing the victim a 2nd Vi roll at TN:43 (19 from first attack + 24 from Team atk) at -2 due to being Staggered.

3) 3rd and further attacks, being it during the same tick or following one, does not count toward the initial team attack. 3rd atk could possibly start a new chain which again can only be followed up by one Team Attack (wash, rinse, repeat).


Am I missing anything?

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Last edited by EddieS on Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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