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 Post subject: Bludgeoning Strike... am I reading it right?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:28 pm 

Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:40 pm
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So if I have a weapon with Bludgeoning strike (say a dagger) to be able to use it I have to pack around a weapon that has Stunning Strike (say a club), then I can attempt to stun people at less of a wager? :?

I can appreciate what was trying to be done here, however all this does now is create an "equipment tax" rather than be an interesting trick.

Am I understanding this correctly?


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 Post subject: Re: Bludgeoning Strike... am I reading it right?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:16 pm 
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No, I don't think that's it.
Dagger has Bludgeoning Strike as a Basic weapon trick. Therefore, you need to have at least 1 rank in the Melee skill. Bludgeoning Strike specifies a 0d Wager. Therefore, if you have the Attack Focus talent in Dagger, you can perform a Bludgeoning Strike at no penalty. If you do not have the Attack Focus talent in Dagger, you can perform a Bludgeoning Strike with a 1d Wager. The end result is 1d less of damage, and the damage's type is bludgeoning.

In addition to all of that, Bludgeoning strike has some... odd wording. This is how I read it, although it doesn't seem like this was the intention to me... If you have the ability to perform a Stunning Strike with another weapon, then you can (instead of using bludgeoning strike with your dagger, etc.) perform a Stunning Strike instead. It's like Bludgeoning Strike is, "Bludgeoning Strike OR Stunning Strike", as long as you have the ability to perform a stunning strike with another weapon.

Now, like I said, that last part doesn't make a lot of sense to me. But that's what the wording says.

Scott


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 Post subject: Re: Bludgeoning Strike... am I reading it right?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:58 pm 

Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:40 pm
Posts: 12
The only thing that Bludgeoning strike seems to do is allow me to use stunning strike at less of a wager. The prerequisite being that I have to have in my possession a weapon with Stunning Strike. My friend joked "So I pack around a Sap in the backpack and then use Bludgeoning strike?"

It sounds silly, but this appears to be what is being said with his rule...hence the comment about the "Gear Tax"


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 Post subject: Re: Bludgeoning Strike... am I reading it right?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:22 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:48 pm
Posts: 214
If you have Attack Focus with any weapon that grants Stunning Strike, you may use that trick with any weapon that grants Bludgeoning Strike. The wording could be better. It was something that was not called out by any editors or backers so we missed it.


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 Post subject: Re: Bludgeoning Strike... am I reading it right?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 2:26 am 

Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:40 pm
Posts: 12
Hmmm...Honestly I'd might suggest/ask that Bludgeoning strike rule be redone. I will admit that Basket Hilt does redeem the rule a bit, However now you have to place a Basket hilt on everything and I'm assuming you don't need Attack focus with a Basket Hilt

Placing the Basket Hilt aside (or if you decide to go without one) this rule is problematic. There is a bit of a "Talent Tax". Say I wanted a character to be good and fighting with a dagger(s) I need to take attack focus Dagger and Weapon Mastery with the Dagger to gain Bludgeoning strike which is the Basic Trick. However I also have to take Attack Focus in some other thing (Clubs/warhammer/unarmed). I'm not sure if I need to take Weapon Mastery again in the Stunning Strike weapon to "unlock " the Bludgeoning Strike thing. So my starting character has to spend 3-4 talents just to be able to use his basic weapon trick. A lot of weapons use Bludgeoning strike as their first trick too.


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 Post subject: Re: Bludgeoning Strike... am I reading it right?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 7:21 am 
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Hmmm...yeah if you need an Attack Focus in another weapon to be able to use Stunning Strike with a weapon capable of bludgeoning strike, that definitely needs to go in the errata. As it is, it reads that all I need is another weapon capable of it. Which defuses Gundark's tax theory.

Tom

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 Post subject: Re: Bludgeoning Strike... am I reading it right?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:47 am 
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I think that the clarification should go into an errata document. However, I disagree about the "talent tax." In order to use the bludgeoning strike weapon trick, you just need to be trained to the appropriate level. (1,3 or 5 ranks in the weapon's skill.) If you want to avoid the 1d penalty for using a weapon trick, then you need attack focus for the weapon. If you want to be able to perform a Stunning Strike with a weapon that can perform bludgeoning strike, only then do you need Attack Focus in the another weapon. (One that can perform Stunning Strike.) You don't need Weapon Mastery at all.

Okay, Now I see the confusion. On page 155, under Weapon Tricks, it says what you need in order to use Weapon Tricks. But in the Talents section, there are three Weapon Mastery talents (see, "Weapon Mastery, Basic" on page 132) that strongly suggest that you need these talents to unlock weapon tricks. I guess we'll need some official word on which is correct. (I think that the Weapon Mastery Talents might have gone away, but were not removed from the Talents section. That's based on prior posts to this forum and because the requirements for the Talents don't line up with the wording in the Weapon Tricks section that Eric has already clarified. {the 1,3,5 ranks post.} WM, Basic requires 2 ranks and WM, Heroic requires 4.)

Scott


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 Post subject: Re: Bludgeoning Strike... am I reading it right?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 1:08 pm 

Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:40 pm
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DeadZone wrote:
Okay, Now I see the confusion. On page 155, under Weapon Tricks, it says what you need in order to use Weapon Tricks. But in the Talents section, there are three Weapon Mastery talents (see, "Weapon Mastery, Basic" on page 132) that strongly suggest that you need these talents to unlock weapon tricks. I guess we'll need some official word on which is correct. (I think that the Weapon Mastery Talents might have gone away, but were not removed from the Talents section. That's based on prior posts to this forum and because the requirements for the Talents don't line up with the wording in the Weapon Tricks section that Eric has already clarified. {the 1,3,5 ranks post.} WM, Basic requires 2 ranks and WM, Heroic requires 4.)

Scott


Yeah, if you don't need the Weapon Mastery Feats then it's not as bad. I brought up the fact that Weapon Mastery isn't mentioned on p. 155 in the other thread that you started and also on rpg.net. It hasn't been addressed yet, however it's Christmas so it might take a bit for an answer.

Needing Attack Focus in a weapon with Stunning strike is still a bit of a "tax" which I might just house rule when I get around to running a game.

Honestly I think that the rule needs a re-write, I generally don't mind "Gamey" rules at all. It's just that this rule as written is hard to picture in my mind as a "Bludgeoning strike". I play a lot of board games and this rule feels very "board gamey" to me. I'm trying to understand it as you are trying to maybe hit someone with the pommel of your weapon, however the rule as written doesn't conjure that in my mind


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 Post subject: Re: Bludgeoning Strike... am I reading it right?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 2:43 pm 

Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:12 pm
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I don't see what the problem with bludgeoning strike is? It's a weapon maneuver that if you have a talent counts as a second weapon maneuver. Bonus?


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 Post subject: Re: Bludgeoning Strike... am I reading it right?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 4:19 pm 
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deviknyte wrote:
I don't see what the problem with bludgeoning strike is? It's a weapon maneuver that if you have a talent counts as a second weapon maneuver. Bonus?


I think the problem really is that Bludgeoning strike, as written, doesn't do anything. It's a stunt that costs you a die worth of damage for...? If its meant to be a stripped down Stunning Strike, which is sorta implied, I'm not sure what that's supposed to do. So right now, I gotta agree with Gundark. It's a penalty just to do something I should be able to do anyway.

A little irritated at myself for missing this. I really need to check my cheat sheet.

So definite errata candidate.

Tom

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