Last visit was: It is currently Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:03 am


All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 130 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 ... 13  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Letters from Ambassador Tukufu
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:59 pm 
Ambassador,

A sage of rather unparalleled qualifications once assured that there are in fact no ghosts with a solemnity that suggested that the word itself should lack meaning. Why have term for a thing that is not and cannot be?

By way of contra example I offer two grim specters, pun quite intended, of a similar outcome -if not nature- to Wantir: Adolphus Val'Tensen and Lucius Orata.

I admit a mildly blase' attitude on this topic. I'm concerned with how and when I confront them more than the explanation of the improbable nature. Also a note of caution: it is a comfortable arrogance that speaks of things that "cannot be" as though the will of the rejecting mind was force enough.

Tis not so. Tis ever not so.

It was suggested by a unusual occurrence during "The Storm" that the Eloran sin of extirpation was actually incomplete in six of the twelve examples. This is purely speculation, but if Nightrunners are twisted cousins of ours I wonder if they would be one of the "unfinished" exterminations born by the assertion Novaras.

Are there things that, however monstrous the crime of their destruction, simply shouldn't be allowed to exist? I'm sure veterans of encounters with Voiceless Ones might assert as much. There a few Ardahiri who argue to the contrary with regard to the Il'Huan. I remain a pragmatist on such topics.

Regards,
Vaize.
Disciple of Anaphylaxia, Servant of Belisarda.

Post script:
I realize that I've never met Belinay.
We should have dinner.
I own an apartment on the 4th floor of a small but raucous quarter called "the Twilight Arcades" for it's apparent magnetism to followers -lay and invested alike- of Cadic and Larissa.
The nightlife is equal parts theatrical and vigorous; I suggest sensible footwear and clothing that's both eye-catching and no great loss if it happens to catch a goblet of wine*. And bring your appetite -the cooking here is amazing. I've never met a fat Elorii, but I admit that after a few weeks of residing within my armor's a little tighter and the stairs leading to home become steeper after a long evening.
There's little chance of serious conversation in the groundfloor taverna but after we've had broken our fast we can retire upwards and get to weightier matters. And perhaps rice pudding.
V.

*(You're likely to be challenged by some wine-emboldened rake over some exaggerated slight; please don't kill anyone -though any concerted attempt to part you from your belongings or bodily health is honest cause for a lethal reprisal. In this life to date I've never found cause to visit Savona or Cafella and yet Mistress asserts that this place has a very parallel nature -minus the irritating incense and omnipresent Coryani respectively.)


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Letters from Ambassador Tukufu
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:44 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:50 am
Posts: 485
Location: Tampa, Florida (temp.)
ZCaslar wrote:
I'm prompted to wonder if that's related to this bizarre property of Wantir's servants being both undead and essentially incorporeal while also managing to use bystanders as vessels for their twisted rebirths.

val Holryn wrote:
Your second question on the nature of Wantir's servants is also very compelling.

To be very clear: Iahkovah and all of his undead servants appeared to be corporeal. There were sarcophagi brought up to the Collection and inside were mummified remains of Ssanu. Now that you mention it, it seems mind boggling that there was a "spirit" that could be transferred from a fallen undead body to an unwilling human host that then died to re-spawn the undead creature. The rule as we understand it is that the soul is usually destroyed in the process of becoming undead in the first place.

I do not know how to account for this. Perhaps the "spirit" I saw was a manifestation of the intellect being transferred and nothing more. Though having seen the transformation with my own eyes I resist this explanation. I, like most of you, previously encountered shades I believe some version of a soul was transferred even if that doesn't normally seem possible. My guess ... and its just a guess ... is that Wantir, or some proxy of his, restored the souls after death and "rebirth." I will certainly consider this topic in future detail at some point.

The Mother Church teaches that there are three components of a man: body, soul, and intellect. Corporeal undead have a body and sometimes an intellect, but their souls have been destroyed as fuel for the transformation to undeath. In contrast, incorporeal shades have a soul and intellect (with variable amount of sanity). It could hypothetically be possible that the division is different for other living beings. I agree with your theory, Tukufu, that it was the intellect rather than the soul that was being transferred in the situation observed of Iahkovah's servants.

Your brother,
Amadi D'Abura val'Abebi

_________________
David Thomas Chappell
Sestius Ovidius val'Mehan Comma and Khamat - psion patrician diplomatic legate and his Myrantian tutor
Quintus Ovidius val'Mehan - patrician military tribune
Amadi val'Abebi - Monk of Althares
Talathos - choleric Kelekene dabbler


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Letters from Ambassador Tukufu
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:41 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
Posts: 807
Location: Michigan
I would note that in the most familiar forms of undeath, it appears the soul of the undead is consumed to power the transformation. That said, a soul may be a soul, and I wouldn't be surprised if some enterprising master of undeath could find a way to power the transfer of a being into undeath by consuming someone/something else's soul instead of their own. That could allow for the production of a corporeal undead with a soul, might it not? I wonder what kind of effect that might have on the undead created?

_________________
AKA Kavaris, awakened "Human" from the Hinterlands, psionic transmutation specialist, adventurer, and no one important


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Letters from Ambassador Tukufu
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 5:34 am 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:06 am
Posts: 1981
Location: Portland OR
Gentlemen and Lady Scholars,

I have already written a letter concerning my thoughts on the intersection of undeath and the soul. My thoughts can be essentially boiled down to a short statement. Things seem more complicated than one might expect from a cursory reading of the Illuminated Scrolls. Perhaps one might also add a small coda: Short of becoming a reclusive necromancer in Canceri, it is hard to see how one might go about getting answers without a (justified) mob coming after you with fire and pitchforks.

Though I am reluctant to revisit the same material I suppose that in the aftermath of Iahkovah it is inevitable.

So. Amadi D'bura val'Abebi writes that, "The Mother Church teaches that there are three components of a man: body, soul, and intellect." Which is absolutely correct and perfectly sound as far as it goes. Further I think we all agree that the process of becoming undead or "Blessed by Neroth" is achieved by mortals through the sacrifice or expenditure of their soul.

But consider a person who has been dead for decades and then reanimated. Such examples exist. I have met such a person. Clearly the soul in such cases has long since departed for Judgement and whatever reward or punishment is meted out. So the reanimation in such a case could not have been fueled by the destruction of the soul. I believe such an event must have be effected by divine will, or at least the will of such powerful proxies as the Valinor. Weirdly I would note that if true, then perhaps if such a person lives long enough he or she might meet their former soul at some point, reincarnated into another body.

Other strange corner cases are worth considering.

I have speculated in other letters that an undead creature could potentially have a soul fragment. Such occurrences must be extremely rare but I image such a state could come from either a semi-separate piece of the soul or from a small piece of the soul surviving the process of transformation. Soul fragments are rare, but sufficiently prevalent that their existence and even study are possible.

Its also possible that other cultures and races have a different metaphysical composition. One needs only look at the elorii whose souls are forever fixed and are simply reborn over and over again through time. Because of that, one must assume that elorii never have soul fragments.

Closer to home, the Myrantians maintain that their souls are composed of seven different parts, such as the Ka and the Ba. Specific and different things allegedly happen to those parts after death of the body. Are they right? Who knows? I have never received a satisfactory answer to the question of where the souls come from for those humans who have never even heard of the Pantheon of Man.

So with all this in mind me return to Iahkovah and the other servants of Wantir.

I repeat again for my readers that to my senses it seemed that they possessed physical bodies. That second rate hack of a scholar Nobotu val'Abebi even had the temerity to put his boot on Iahkovah after he was vanquished and give a victory speech. The gasbag.

It was also clear that Iahkovah possesed "an impossible" ability to transfer the essence of his followers from a defeated Ssanu body to a human bystander. From which a new Ssanu body exploded. Under the body, intellect & soul formulation from the Illuminated Scrolls this would not be possible. Corporeal undead do not have souls. So clearly something else was going on.

It is a reasonable hypothesis that it was "merely" the intellect which was transposed. But though I have offered it as an explanation I am not totally satisfied with it. It seems to me that a transferred intellect should only take over the mind of its "host." I fail to see a logical metaphysical underpinning where an intellect can create a new body through the death of its host.

Another possible hypothesis might be that Wantir effected the state of undeath, or otherwise had possession of the souls of his followers. As such Iahkovah and his followers might have been an exception to what is possible for a follower of the Pantheon of Man, and retained some form of soul even in undeath. The suggestion from "No One Important" that the transformation to undeath might be launched through the sacrifice of other souls makes me squirm. I hope such things are not possible. Such an action would be a crime worse than murder.

However Iahkovah managed his grizzly resurrections I am immensely grateful that he was destroyed and that my wife survived.

I remain your obedient scribe,

Tukufu, Ambassador of Altheria

_________________
Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Letters from Ambassador Tukufu
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:51 am 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:59 am
Posts: 811
Location: Ontario, Canada
Ambassador,

The subject of your most recent letter is an intriguing one. Despite hailing from Holy Canceri, I've never personally had significant interest in the blessed of Neroth. The homeland of my brothers the val'Mordane of course is rife with them, but the scions of Virdan and Emman have different practices. On the topic of the soul, however, I do profess a keen interest. It has long troubled me that the damned might escape Nier's Judgement by becoming undead.

Your observation regarding bodies long dead becoming animated is of interest. It is, of course, a blaspheme most severe to suggest that some lowly necromancer could subvert Nier's Judgement and draw a soul back from the Cauldron (or, of course, the Paradise of the Gods). I would submit to you that there must be another power at work in these instances. Perhaps in these cases the body is held together by eldritch power exclusively?

It would be of interest to compare and contrast two undead, one created shortly after death and the other long dead. How would they compare in ability, strength and endurance? Once allowances were made for natural decay, would one have an advantage over the other? What of the effort required by the caster in each instance?

One question which has never been answered to my satisfaction is how long it takes for the soul to depart the body for Judgement. Is it an immediate process? Does it take hours, or days? I would think it in the interest of the Gods to ensure the process is as expedient as possible, yet we do not know.

I too was present for the battle against the servants of Wantir. I suspect that the creation of his followers using humans was less the creation of new sentient undead, and more the use of raw materials to manufacture grisly automatons, not unlike an Altherian's clockworks. The Ssanu have access to many unknown magics, but they are not gods.

I look forward to any further thoughts you have on the matter.

Glory to Lord Nier, Judgement of the Gods. Glory to Holy Canceri.

Raseri val'Emman
Order of the Incandescent Flame

_________________
Akira Currier
aka Raseri 'Crash' val'Emman - Master of the Incandescent Flame (Martial 3.6)
aka Leif of House Borghild - Skohir Human Myrmidon (Martial 2.6)
aka Rurik of Nol Dappa - Dwarven War Priest (Divine 2.3)


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Letters from Ambassador Tukufu
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:24 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:50 am
Posts: 485
Location: Tampa, Florida (temp.)
acurrier wrote:
One question which has never been answered to my satisfaction is how long it takes for the soul to depart the body for Judgement. Is it an immediate process? Does it take hours, or days? I would think it in the interest of the Gods to ensure the process is as expedient as possible, yet we do not know.

The Mother Church teaches that the soul departs the body and travels to face Judgment upon the next rising of the Sun as Illiiir's light first touches the spot where the body lies. Magic spells that affect the life force have borne this teaching out to be valid. [Though the magic mattered more in d20 rules wherein raise dead was an actual spell.]

It is possible that the enlightened Tukufu may have more details on which he can elaborate on this topic.

Your brother,
Amadi D'Abura val'Abebi

_________________
David Thomas Chappell
Sestius Ovidius val'Mehan Comma and Khamat - psion patrician diplomatic legate and his Myrantian tutor
Quintus Ovidius val'Mehan - patrician military tribune
Amadi val'Abebi - Monk of Althares
Talathos - choleric Kelekene dabbler


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Letters from Ambassador Tukufu
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:14 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:59 am
Posts: 811
Location: Ontario, Canada
Dante wrote:
The Mother Church teaches that the soul departs the body and travels to face Judgment upon the next rising of the Sun as Illiiir's light first touches the spot where the body lies. Magic spells that affect the life force have borne this teaching out to be valid. [Though the magic mattered more in d20 rules wherein raise dead was an actual spell.]

Ah, right you are. I had forgotten that when I wrote my post. Thanks :)

_________________
Akira Currier
aka Raseri 'Crash' val'Emman - Master of the Incandescent Flame (Martial 3.6)
aka Leif of House Borghild - Skohir Human Myrmidon (Martial 2.6)
aka Rurik of Nol Dappa - Dwarven War Priest (Divine 2.3)


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Letters from Ambassador Tukufu
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:28 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:06 am
Posts: 1981
Location: Portland OR
Master Rasei, Brother D'Abura and other interested parties,

I am no necromancer with secret knowledge of the transitions between life, death and undeath. So I hope you will forgive me by stating up front that what I know about such things is either piecemeal spinets or second hand anecdotes. But I have learned some things in my travels. Like both of you and our friends from the Crusades and other the Blessed Lands, I have had the misfortune of fighting shades and the walking dead on too many occasions.

Brother D'Abura is of course correct in repeating the teachings of the Mother Church. In the overwhelming number of cases the soul departs with the next dawn for the Underworld and its ultimate fate based on what kind of life it led. Exceptions are just that. I do not have any particular knowledge of how or why a soul would not make the journey. But I do know that it does not take god-like divine intervention to cause the natural order to go astray. Too many Irregulars saw the infernal mages of the Sealed Lands use vile rituals to condemn damaged souls to shades. That such magics are potentially within the realm of mortal sorcery, as opposed to the power of the Valinor and Gods, is deeply disturbing.

Master Raseri you raised a question about a possible correlation between how powerful an undead creature would be and how long was the interval between death and reanimation. I have not explored the issue, but my initial thought is that this is not a terribly important variable. Milandir has fought on numerous occasions with armies of skeletons due to their troubled relations with Canceri. No reports exist to my knowledge of the ancient skeletons of Ventaka being any more troubling than the animated skeletons of the recently fallen. At least on an individual basis. There is a collection of correspondences that bewail the unending numbers of skeletons that Ventaka can spill out as a flood of bone in the rare times it is besiege.

What instead seems to be of most importance in guessing the power of an undead creature is establishing how a creature becomes undead. The creation of skeletons through the Graveblight Cants or necromancy produce essentially mindless drones that are easily dispatched. These things are essentially a residual body used as a marionette by the arcanum. More powerful creatures require intellect or spirit to move them. I do not truly understand what a Glakki spirit is, but I know they can be bound to corpses to create more resilient and intelligent forms of zombies. Shamans of the Hinterlands sometimes create them, and then struggle to control them. Greater still seem to be those undead that retain their Intellect either because they arise spontaneously from the Will of Neroth or because they are the most powerful of the val'Mordane. These creatures or sometimes persons, are the elite of the undead world and retain the ability to learn and grow.

I had not thought about the state of undeath as a possible escape from the Judgement of Nier. It seems like a very high price to pay. There are indeed stories of individuals who sacrifice their souls to attain the state of undeath, but I have not encountered one yet.

I remain your obedient scribe,

Tukufu, Ambassador of Altheria.

_________________
Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Letters from Ambassador Tukufu
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:04 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:45 pm
Posts: 632
Learned ambassador,

I was studying a rock, when it suddenly hit me. What are rocks made of? The elements of the universe are all fairly uniform in nature. Fire, Air, Water all have their impurities to be sure. But what is the 'stuff' of the Earth? I've seen strange rocks that are red, and purple, or white and black, or black and glossy. The variations are seemingly limitless. I've even seen rocks with starfish in them in areas where there is no water. Then there is tin, copper, and iron. Certain rocks yield these metals when put to the torch, while other rocks yield no such response. Yet for all of these variations, the followers of Saluwe seam to have no trouble using their skills...provided that the stone is unworked. Why does the working of stone matter, when the working of fire, water, and air does not?

I am most perplexed.

Bardus

_________________
---
Eric Hughes

There once was a gnome called Oozy,
Who kissed a Yaricite floozy.
But rather than wed,
She drowned him instead,
Now he is a Yaricite toosey!


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Letters from Ambassador Tukufu
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:07 pm 
Bardus,

Ask a Marokene.

Regards,
Vaize.


Top
  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 130 posts ]  Moderators: james.zwiers, PCI Eric Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 ... 13  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Theme created StylerBB.net & kodeki