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 Post subject: A Troubling Incident [Potential Spoilers Ahead!!]
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 12:10 pm 
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A troubling incident recently occurred with the confines of our Blessed First City. During a recent expedition beneath our Blessed First City we encountered a group of degenerate Gar living in a cavern. When I insisted these subhuman scum be purged from the area several of my compatriots objected. I was aghast that supposed worshippers of the Gods would take that attitude. Clearly their faith in superiority of Man and our Blessed Mission to rule these lands was in doubt. The very presence of these Gar is an affront to the Gods and I patiently explained this to my companions to no avail. In light of their failure to act in accordance with the will of the Gods, I have debated reporting them to the Inquisition for their demonstrated lack of faith, but at this point have decided to observe them further for additional signs of weakness and heresy. May the Gods have mercy on their souls, for the Judgment of Nier will not.

Your Brother in Faith
Haakon val'Ishi
Anointed Priest of Beltine and Sanctioned Exorcist

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Michael T. Hebert

Haakon val'Ishi, Beltinian Exorcist 2.7 [Divine]
Ursula val'Holryn, Grand Master of the Tralian Hammer 2.2 [Martial]
Arun of Tultipet, Holy Champion of Neroth 1.10 [Expert]
Rikitsa val'Holryn, Psion 1.9 [Arcane]


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 Post subject: Re: A Troubling Incident [Potential Spoilers Ahead!!]
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:21 pm 
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My Dear Haakon val'Ishi,

What is it you wish the Inquisition to do?

We live in a world where, I am sorry to say, hidden cults to infernals and alien divinities actively seek to subvert the followers of the Pantheon of Man. And tear down the Mother Church. The core of the Inquisition, as I understand it, is that safeguard mankind by rooting these groups out from the shadows. That job is unpleasant and often ugly. But necessary.

Am I correct that you want members of the Inquisition to take their eyes off this important task to investigate your former companions? To what end? Do you really believe that your companions spared the Gar because they are secretly followers of Tzihet? Or do you just want your former comrades tortured or executed? Maybe you imagine that they will be bullied and intimidated enough by the Inquisition to do what you want the next time there is a disagreement. (Doubtful!)

Come Haakon, I think this is beneath you. I applaud your piety. And I also have little use for the illiterate Gar. But I am concerned that you want to misuse the Inquisition merely to resolve your personal conflicts. That is not appropriate on at least two levels.

Just my opinion: A man or woman who makes trouble for neighbors and comrades is eventually a very lonely person.

-Tukufu, Ambassador of Altheria

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AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: A Troubling Incident [Potential Spoilers Ahead!!]
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:09 pm 
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val Holryn wrote:
My Dear Haakon val'Ishi,

What is it you wish the Inquisition to do?

We live in a world where, I am sorry to say, hidden cults to infernals and alien divinities actively seek to subvert the followers of the Pantheon of Man. And tear down the Mother Church. The core of the Inquisition, as I understand it, is that safeguard mankind by rooting these groups out from the shadows. That job is unpleasant and often ugly. But necessary.

Am I correct that you want members of the Inquisition to take their eyes off this important task to investigate your former companions? To what end? Do you really believe that your companions spared the Gar because they are secretly followers of Tzihet? Or do you just want your former comrades tortured or executed? Maybe you imagine that they will be bullied and intimidated enough by the Inquisition to do what you want the next time there is a disagreement. (Doubtful!)

Come Haakon, I think this is beneath you. I applaud your piety. And I also have little use for the illiterate Gar. But I am concerned that you want to misuse the Inquisition merely to resolve your personal conflicts. That is not appropriate on at least two levels.

Just my opinion: A man or woman who makes trouble for neighbors and comrades is eventually a very lonely person.

-Tukufu, Ambassador of Altheria



My Dear Ambassador,

I don't want the Inquisition to DO anything. I merely want them to be aware of their lapse of faith. Because if they are willing to overlook one thing, they may well overlook or countenance something far more serious. Hence my decision to watch them for shall we say more "specific" evidence. Perhaps we live in such troubled times precisely because we allow squatters like the Gar to exist in the confines of our Holy City. The Gods gave us this land to reward us for our devotion and sacrifice to them. If we aren't willing to purge the unworthy from the First City what hope do have to claim the rest of the lands the Gods bequeathed to us?

Also I put to you good sir, what use is it for the Inquisition to root out every cultist threat if the congregation rots from within for lack of faith? We cannot be selective in our following of the Gods commands. I am not going to stand before the Judgment of Nier and say I did not do what was required because it was "inconvenient" or offended the sensibilities of my travelling companions. As for "personal conflicts" there are none. I am merely an instrument of the Gods will. For anyone to claim anything else is to risk an eternity in the Grey Lady's Cauldron until perhaps she sees fit to grant that condemned soul another chance at redemption. I don't know about you but that is not a risk I am willing to take.

Your Brother in Faith
Haakon val'Ishi
Anointed Priest of Beltine and Sanctioned Exorcist

_________________
Michael T. Hebert

Haakon val'Ishi, Beltinian Exorcist 2.7 [Divine]
Ursula val'Holryn, Grand Master of the Tralian Hammer 2.2 [Martial]
Arun of Tultipet, Holy Champion of Neroth 1.10 [Expert]
Rikitsa val'Holryn, Psion 1.9 [Arcane]


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 Post subject: Re: A Troubling Incident [Potential Spoilers Ahead!!]
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:40 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
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Location: Michigan
Dear Haakon,

Do you mind if I ask for some clarification on the actions by those you propose to report to the Inquisition?

First, what was their apparent crime again? From what I can discern it was that they did not kill unbelieving Gar zealously enough, is that correct? Do you then propose that it is the duty and requirement for all members of the mother church to kill all non-church members on sight, to clear the path for church members to populate all of Onara? If so, how do you hold yourself back from slaughtering the Milandisian church members you meet? Or is it just non-humans? If so, how do you hide the bodies of the Elorri you kill to pass the time? Or is it a question of sentience, with the argument that the Gar are more subhuman than the Elorri (an argument the Elorri would no doubt half agree with, as they consider themselves super, not sub, human), and thus deserve to be purged when other races do not? Please clarify what level of bloodthirstiness is required to prevent a follower from "rotting from within?"

Secondly, why would any of that fall within the purview of the Inquisition, those responsible for hunting down heretics? To be a heretic one must believe in the gods incorrectly, and want to pervert the belief in others. The Inquisition is not designed to be the protectors of the church from all threats, just heresy.

Third, were you taking this place you were exploring for colonization? It is my understanding that much of the undercity is populated by a diverse, "ecosystem," (for lack of a better word), of creatures. I put to you that there are probably many more blasphemous creatures there than the Gar, and thus the Gar may serve a beneficial role in weakening others there until such time as humans really do return to the undercity to take it. I, for one, would recommend not worrying about colonizing the undercity until we have reclaimed all of the uncleansed areas on the surface of the city.

Finally, and I hope you don't consider me a heretic for asking this, as it a most honest question that I don't know the answer to, but are we supposed to bring the pantheon to others? Obviously they are the Pantheon of Man, and man will always be their favorite, but tales from the Heroes of Light during the Coryani Civil War indicate that other species do follow the Pantheon, just as the dwarves and giants do. May it not be our duty to bring the pantheon to others besides humans? Might it not be the desire of the Gods for us not to exterminate the Gar, but to convert them and use them to further the very desires of the Gods?

I anxiously await your enlightening answers,

Kavaris

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 Post subject: Re: A Troubling Incident [Potential Spoilers Ahead!!]
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:27 am 
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toodeep wrote:
Dear Haakon,

Do you mind if I ask for some clarification on the actions by those you propose to report to the Inquisition?

First, what was their apparent crime again? From what I can discern it was that they did not kill unbelieving Gar zealously enough, is that correct? Do you then propose that it is the duty and requirement for all members of the mother church to kill all non-church members on sight, to clear the path for church members to populate all of Onara? If so, how do you hold yourself back from slaughtering the Milandisian church members you meet? Or is it just non-humans? If so, how do you hide the bodies of the Elorri you kill to pass the time? Or is it a question of sentience, with the argument that the Gar are more subhuman than the Elorri (an argument the Elorri would no doubt half agree with, as they consider themselves super, not sub, human), and thus deserve to be purged when other races do not? Please clarify what level of bloodthirstiness is required to prevent a follower from "rotting from within?"

Secondly, why would any of that fall within the purview of the Inquisition, those responsible for hunting down heretics? To be a heretic one must believe in the gods incorrectly, and want to pervert the belief in others. The Inquisition is not designed to be the protectors of the church from all threats, just heresy.

Third, were you taking this place you were exploring for colonization? It is my understanding that much of the undercity is populated by a diverse, "ecosystem," (for lack of a better word), of creatures. I put to you that there are probably many more blasphemous creatures there than the Gar, and thus the Gar may serve a beneficial role in weakening others there until such time as humans really do return to the undercity to take it. I, for one, would recommend not worrying about colonizing the undercity until we have reclaimed all of the uncleansed areas on the surface of the city.

Finally, and I hope you don't consider me a heretic for asking this, as it a most honest question that I don't know the answer to, but are we supposed to bring the pantheon to others? Obviously they are the Pantheon of Man, and man will always be their favorite, but tales from the Heroes of Light during the Coryani Civil War indicate that other species do follow the Pantheon, just as the dwarves and giants do. May it not be our duty to bring the pantheon to others besides humans? Might it not be the desire of the Gods for us not to exterminate the Gar, but to convert them and use them to further the very desires of the Gods?

I anxiously await your enlightening answers,

Kavaris


If you think all the Inquisition does is chase down heretics you are going to be surprised when they knock down your door in the middle of the night, or simply grab you in broad daylight and haul you off for questioning. The Inquisition is the conscience of the church that does what must be done so the actions of one fool do not condemn us all. Plus it's easier to put out a fire when it's a spark than a conflagration.

If we believe the words of the Gods to be true then they bequeathed not only the First City to Humanity but all of Onara as well. They didn't say oh well let the Elorri be they told them to LEAVE the area or be killed. I take that to mean all other non-humans should be removed as well, in particular from an area as sacred as the First City. If they will not move then they must be "removed" by whatever means necessary. To do less is the subvert the will of the Gods, which in my book is at least the first step down the road to heresy and a sin in an of itself.

As for the Elorii do you not think the would kill us all if they were able? History has proven that. Whenever they were in a position of strength they attacked. The only difference between the Malfelan, the Seremasi and the Vastwood Elorii is their methods, their goal is the same, the elimination of Humanity and the restoration of their dead false "gods." If there one thing I have learned is you can work with them but never ever trust them.

Your question on accepting non-human worshippers into the fold is worthy of consideration. Still I would point out that when Blessed Illiir bequeathed Humanity with Onara he did not add "The Elorii can stay if they convert." That option was not on the table. Perhaps the Gods were not willing to allow non-human worshippers into the fold, perhaps they foresaw dangers we could not. If the Gar squatters really wanted to join the Church they should approach openly and willingly instead of hiding in the shadows. That sort of behavior makes doubt their piety.


Your Brother In Faith
Haakon val'Ishi
Anointed Priest of Beltine and Sanctioned Exorcist

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Michael T. Hebert

Haakon val'Ishi, Beltinian Exorcist 2.7 [Divine]
Ursula val'Holryn, Grand Master of the Tralian Hammer 2.2 [Martial]
Arun of Tultipet, Holy Champion of Neroth 1.10 [Expert]
Rikitsa val'Holryn, Psion 1.9 [Arcane]


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 Post subject: Re: A Troubling Incident [Potential Spoilers Ahead!!]
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:06 am 
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Location: Coryan's Imperial Court
Exorcist Haakon val'Ishi,

Alas. Too often the best gossip from the first City grows stale before it gets to me. I really should cultivate a better circle of scandalmongers. Or at least check in more regularly. I have just now heard of your rant against Gar loving pacifists.

I would cry crocodile tears, at least for forms sake, BUT ...

But something else leaps out at me! You are an EXORCIST living in the First City. At a time when that damnable noose-wearing mountebank has ensorcelled or possessed the women of the Golden Court! And you are sad because some of your friends didn't let you kill Gar while grubbing for trinkets underground?

Are you not Coryani?!? Is there no Honor that beats in your breast? There is a job that needs doing! You are uniquely qualified... so stop blustering about triffles and do your Duty!

A concerned Patrician

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May we all understand, know, and act in accord with our highest ideals.
In the end we must all return to our beginnings.


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 Post subject: Re: A Troubling Incident [Potential Spoilers Ahead!!]
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 7:43 am 
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Okay the following is OUT OF CHARACTER to clear some things up:

First the person you refer to is a Henry character and thus has script immunity. I seem to recall being told in the past that my abilities would or could not be used on him. So until Henry allows it in a mod any shall we say interaction on my part with said character is not an option

Second the point of this exercise was to show just how extreme someone could be if we take what we are told about this universe at face value. It's pretty clear from my reading of the materials that the Gods of the Pantheon "gave" the continent and the First City to their followers. There's a clear sense of manifest destinty here, along with a pretty explicit sense of "human" superiority. "We won because we were meant to" and all that. Thus I see the First City in the way the medieval Crusaders viewed Jerusalem. And they were pretty determined in the First Crusade of ridding that holy city of all "infidels."

Don't get me wrong I want to get to the bottom of the main plot as anyone. I just thought it might be fun in this particular instance to play out an extremist religious viewpoint. No worse than some of the racist Elorii I've played with or some of the vicious Ss'Ressen I've played and played with. In the end it's all a game and the idea is to have fun. When it comes to combat I park my prejudice at the door and focus on being a team player no matter who my compatriots are. I want us all to have a good time.

On these forums though sometimes I push the envelope and I freely admit that. But the last thing I want to do is offend or hurt feelings. Anybody who really knows me recognizes that.

Oh one last thing. My character is Milandisian not Coryani.

Take care all.

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Michael T. Hebert

Haakon val'Ishi, Beltinian Exorcist 2.7 [Divine]
Ursula val'Holryn, Grand Master of the Tralian Hammer 2.2 [Martial]
Arun of Tultipet, Holy Champion of Neroth 1.10 [Expert]
Rikitsa val'Holryn, Psion 1.9 [Arcane]


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 Post subject: Re: A Troubling Incident [Potential Spoilers Ahead!!]
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:48 am 
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Faithful,

I too am disturbed by the presence of those who are not consecrated to the True Gods located within the holy sanctum of the First City of Man, gifted to His children by Blessed Illiir. To know that vile creatures such as the Nightrunners haunt and target the faithful in the most sacred of places upon Onara also is prominent in my mind in my daily prayers.

However, I must point out one thing: It is not the job of the Inquisition to squash lesser beings who do not worship the Twelve. It is the job of the Inquisition to purge heresy and impiety, and to protect His children from those who wish to pull them away from the Twelve.

The fact that the gar do not worship the Pantheon is unfortunate, but what can you truly expect of those who were not blessed by the radiance of the True Gods? Their existence may be a test to the faithful, but it is not in my opinion the affront that you believe it to be. It certainly is not sufficient to bring down the wrath of the Inquisition upon them.

Additional complications come with the realities of religion within Illiir's City on Arcanis. The current rulers of the city, while generally friendly to Mother Church, are not of the True Faith. They allow the Khitani to practice their Kalindruhl openly, despite the fact that they impiously exclude one of the Twelve (Anshar) from their faith in direct opposition to Illiir's laws. They allow the Death Mongers to worship, despite the fact they claim that nine of the Twelve are dead and only Sarish, Neroth, and Beltine survive. However, because all believe the First City to be the most holy of holies on Arcanis, to prevent wars the Tomal Khan and his predecessors demanded that all who wished to worship in peace were allowed to worship in the First City of Man, regardless of their perversions. While I, a follower of Nier, may grate against this choice, I can understand its logic and how it has likely prevented those who profess to believe in the Gods from killing themselves unnecessarily. It also provides an avenue for those of the True Faith to educate those of lesser or misguided beliefs of the truth of His Church on Arcanis.

These are trying questions, and I do not blame you from being infuriated. I likely would be too if I had seen such people profaning the sacred lands of the First City. However, as others have pointed out that these gar are not actively attempting to turn those from the Truth of the Gods. My experience with them from my homeland of Nova Cormata suggests that the these creatures care more about feeding their bellies than they do proselytizing. They raid farms for food and to punish those they believe in their territory, not attempting to spread their primitive faith in spirits.

What they DO represent, however, is a direct PHYSICAL threat to the faithful. As such, I do entirely support that you report the presence of one of their tribes to the authorities of the First City, especially to groups such as the Legion, the Fen [depending on the timestamp of this post], and the Blue Cloaks. The presence of these creatures could pose a threat to the City that is far more dangerous than any religious considerations that may arrive from such simple creatures.

Yours in faith,

Haakon Marcus val'Virdan, Holy Judge of the Mother Church of Coryan

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Haakon Marcus val'Virdan, Divine Holy Judge of Nier
Ruma val'Vasik, Martial Crusader and Master of the Spear
Jorma Osterman, Arcane Coryani Battlemage


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 Post subject: Re: A Troubling Incident [Potential Spoilers Ahead!!]
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:48 pm 
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Nierite wrote:
However, I must point out one thing: It is not the job of the Inquisition to squash lesser beings who do not worship the Twelve. It is the job of the Inquisition to purge heresy and impiety, and to protect His children from those who wish to pull them away from the Twelve.

The fact that the gar do not worship the Pantheon is unfortunate, but what can you truly expect of those who were not blessed by the radiance of the True Gods? Their existence may be a test to the faithful, but it is not in my opinion the affront that you believe it to be. It certainly is not sufficient to bring down the wrath of the Inquisition upon them.

What they DO represent, however, is a direct PHYSICAL threat to the faithful. As such, I do entirely support that you report the presence of one of their tribes to the authorities of the First City, especially to groups such as the Legion, the Fen [depending on the timestamp of this post], and the Blue Cloaks. The presence of these creatures could pose a threat to the City that is far more dangerous than any religious considerations that may arrive from such simple creatures.


To be clear I did not propose reporting the Gar to the Inquisition but rather the lapse of faith demonstrated by my companions who profess to worship the Pantheon. The Inquisition cares as much about the internal threat as the external. It was the rot from within that brought down the First Imperium not some external force. Heresy often starts with small acts of impiety. Faith in the Gods is not a series of selective actions when it's convenient. It's all or nothing. Anything less will find a soul wanting when it faces the Judgment of Nier.

Also I daresay those following the Kalindruhl would find this just as troubling as they believe the First City to be their birthright as well. It's just as well my companions were travelling with a priest of Beltine. I doubt one of their "slaughter priests" would have been as tolerant as I was.

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Haakon val'Ishi, Beltinian Exorcist 2.7 [Divine]
Ursula val'Holryn, Grand Master of the Tralian Hammer 2.2 [Martial]
Arun of Tultipet, Holy Champion of Neroth 1.10 [Expert]
Rikitsa val'Holryn, Psion 1.9 [Arcane]


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 Post subject: Re: A Troubling Incident [Potential Spoilers Ahead!!]
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 2:14 pm 
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OUT OF CHARACTER

One thing that just struck me is how impassioned we are all getting over interpretation of religious doctrine....welcome to the real world folks! :) IF you don't believe me look up the early years of just about any organized religion and a little dustup called the Protestant Reformation...

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Haakon val'Ishi, Beltinian Exorcist 2.7 [Divine]
Ursula val'Holryn, Grand Master of the Tralian Hammer 2.2 [Martial]
Arun of Tultipet, Holy Champion of Neroth 1.10 [Expert]
Rikitsa val'Holryn, Psion 1.9 [Arcane]


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