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 Post subject: Re: Postings of a Heretic
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2016 12:00 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
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Location: Michigan
val Holryn wrote:
Where do spirit talkers come down on matters of the soul? Do you believe your soul came from the Cauldron? If no, then where does it come from and return to? If yes, do you fear that your practice of spirit talking will anger either Beltine or the Judgement of Nier?


I'm sure spirit-talkers come down on matters of the soul in the same places others do - all over the map. I know my soul came from the Cauldron, and I suspect it will return to there in the future. There are stories of spirit-talkers trying to avoid their fate by bodily entering the spirit realm and trying to live forever as spirits. I do not know if this is possible, but the stories never seem to end well for those who have tried.

I fear that much in my life will make it such that I will not pass the Judgement of Nier, as I suspect most mortals fear until the event actually comes to pass. Do you I think spirit-talking will, be the cause of this? No, but I do fear that some of what I do with my ability to spirit-talk will. When I go before Nier, I don't believe I will have to explain the powers I used, but the choices I made, and I fear it is my choices that will damn me.

Some of those choices might be ones that I make in the spirit realm, but they are no more or less weighty than those choices many make in the normal realm that can elevate or damn their souls as well.

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AKA Kavaris, awakened "Human" from the Hinterlands, psionic transmutation specialist, adventurer, and no one important


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 Post subject: Re: Postings of a Heretic
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2016 8:14 pm 
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Location: Portland OR
Dear Sir or Madame,

You say the spirits focus on the most primitive or essential aspects of life. Does that include relationships or romance? In my experience there is no shortage of charlatans peddling "love charms" or "love potions." The consensus, among my friends who can manipulate the arcanum, is universally that they are rubbish. Just curious if there is a seperate opinion among spirit talkers.

Endlessly curious,

Tukufu, Anbassador of Altheria

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Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Postings of a Heretic
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 2:10 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
Posts: 767
Location: Michigan
Your question is more complicated than you might think. Love spirits, as a primal emotion do of course exist, but because so much about love is about free will, no love spirit would willingly cooperate with any plans to be bound to an unwilling individual, or to abrogate their free will. I think you can see why some of the spirits of darker emotions are easier to manipulate to being used against people – as that is already their natural tendency. Therefore, while a love charm that might bind a spirit to an individual and make them feel love might be possible, it is usually more difficult than it is worth, and less effective than desired, even if accomplished.

That said, if one only wants to apply a Lust spirit, rather than a love spirit, to an individual, that could be accomplished much more easily. But Lust spirits are powerful and dangerous to the caster as well as the target, and stories usually tell of such attempts not ending well. Though, I have wondered if the application of a Lust spirit might have been involved in the rumored conception of Calcestus.

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 Post subject: Re: Postings of a Heretic
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:18 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
Posts: 767
Location: Michigan
I suggested earlier that I meant to discuss the spirit realm, but I have sadly found myself pressed for time recently. I am glad to have found this moment to scribe these words out to post.

Why? Because I was considering describing spirits to you, but realized they are too complicated unless you understand the spirit world from which they come. Everyone knows that spirits live along side us in this world, but they also exist in other places, often at the same time. What are these other places? The dream world, often called dreamtime. It can be hard to explain, because it is different every time one goes there, and because so much of your perception of it is unique to yourself. It's a place where ideas and concepts can take form as allusions and allegory. Worst than that, it is more than one place!

All of us create our own unique dreamtime in our own mind, a universe of our own that we, with proper training, essentially have complete control over. But it is a universe usually only peopled by our own visions of ourselves, our dreams, our fears, and our memories. There are no real people to interact with.

But there is a dreamtime outside of our own mind, connected to it in myriad ways. Quite possibly it is the dream of the world. If the implications of that don't make one wonder about the nature of the world, nothing will. In this dreamtime you can see the world as it thinks it might be, or as you think it should be, as it might be, or how one fears it could be. It is infinitely morphic, but it's all still in some way accurate to reality. And it doesn't end there! You can find stranger and stranger places in Dreamtime, if you aren't careful, possibly find areas created by the dreams of dreams, or the remains from the dreams of civilizations long dead. Dreamtime goes on forever, but if you go in too deep, forget ever finding your way back.

The most amazing way I've seen this reflected is the dreamtime view of the Blessed Lands. As a novice, I still try to minimize the time I spend in dreamtime, as it can be an easy place to lose oneself, but I've still seen the Blessed Lands in it, and I've seen the torture it experiences to this day from the Kurenthe curses laid upon it. I know the Saluwean's are working to heal the Blessed Lands, but I can't help but think that what the Blessed Lands may need most is some powerful spirit-talkers to help it heal. Someday, if I survive that long, I would like to at least have an idea of how to go about doing that.

Anything that can be dreamed can be accomplished in Dreamtime. The trick is making what happens in Dreamtime be reflected in the physical world. That is an ability of the true spirit-talkers, those who have mastered their powers to become oneiromancers. I am not one (yet) and few spirit-talkers ever achieve that level of control over Dreamtime. Instead we must rely on those that understand dreamtime instinctively, the very spirits that dwell there, to accomplish things, and to channel power from dreamtime into the mortal world.

As always,

Anonymous, for my safety.

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AKA Kavaris, awakened "Human" from the Hinterlands, psionic transmutation specialist, adventurer, and no one important


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 Post subject: Re: Postings of a Heretic
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 8:29 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 9:03 pm
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Location: Coryan's Imperial Court
Heretic,

Since you write anonymously, I shan't give my name either.

It may be that you have knowledge we need in Coryan and the First City. When you talk with the spirits, what does this "dream of the world" show of that brat now known to us as the Great General? I assume he is reflected there. And what of his boot licker Matias? And the women of the Golden Court?

I have some friends whose recent shift of allegiances were rather surprising. I expect foul play is involved. If Larissa is kind enough to present me with an opportunity to do something about that, I should prefer some evidence beyond my own suspicions before pursuing justice and revenge.

-A concerned Patrician

PS - I hope you wrap yourself up in exotic dress and collect colorful taboos you need to follow. In my minds eye I see you that way. It would be disappointing to discover you look and act mundanely. Like my gardener. He does not talks to spirits, but he does talk to the topiary.

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May we all understand, know, and act in accord with our highest ideals.
In the end we must all return to our beginnings.


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 Post subject: Re: Postings of a Heretic
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 6:37 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
Posts: 767
Location: Michigan
Cosmopolita Publia wrote:
Heretic,

Since you write anonymously, I shan't give my name either.

It may be that you have knowledge we need in Coryan and the First City. When you talk with the spirits, what does this "dream of the world" show of that brat now known to us as the Great General? I assume he is reflected there. And what of his boot licker Matias? And the women of the Golden Court?

I have some friends whose recent shift of allegiances were rather surprising. I expect foul play is involved. If Larissa is kind enough to present me with an opportunity to do something about that, I should prefer some evidence beyond my own suspicions before pursuing justice and revenge.

-A concerned Patrician

PS - I hope you wrap yourself up in exotic dress and collect colorful taboos you need to follow. In my minds eye I see you that way. It would be disappointing to discover you look and act mundanely. Like my gardener. He does not talks to spirits, but he does talk to the topiary.


I have felt the power of his presence, and I can only assume his power has some reflection within dreamscape. Were I a master there, perhaps I could find some information there due to that fact alone, but alas, I am not. As I am, I would be reliant on dealing with spirits I don't know there, and most would probably not care about him and thus know nothing; while those that do have the knowledge I seek, may a care a bit too much for my health, so to speak. So while I may seek answers there at times, it is probably easier to find them in the real world.

If I said that I walked around on fire, do you think the inquisition would kidnap and drown those in the first city walking around on fire? I would find that entertaining considering the circumstances. But alas, I think it wisest to not discuss my appearance.

sincerely,

anonymous

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AKA Kavaris, awakened "Human" from the Hinterlands, psionic transmutation specialist, adventurer, and no one important


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 Post subject: Re: Postings of a Heretic
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:26 pm 

Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2016 3:31 pm
Posts: 68
Location: U.S.A. Ohio
Greetings.. Please allow me to introduce myself. I am Savik No Taste, Ghost Scale. Closer of Gates, Slayer of Demons, Chef of Tasty Delights; and traveling companion to a long time friend and Val'Tensen, Oman.

I find your conversation interesting. The discussion of souls in particular is of interest to me. For you see, I'm not sure how much is known of my people and their history to you. We were once part of the Black Talon clutch, but split off in hopes of finding warmth and shelter far closer than the Sulfuric Marsh of Milandir. It was there that my ancestors found our one true God. Herka, the God of Stone. My time with the clutch was limited as I soon set out for Milandir, only to be exiled some time later. It is all but a distant memory to me, though I'm sure if I ever return I could find my way through our sewers.. No doubt Herka would guide me home.

The reason I write this letter is to ask, have you seen the souls of my people in this place you call dreamtime, or the dream world? I trust that my spirit will return to Herka's warm embrace upon my death.. but.. well the specter of Kassegore casts a fiery shadow over all us scaled creatures. Herka and my clutch are new and young. I fear the ancient dragon will come one day and reclaim all us migrants who fled from him. I don't hold the old dragon or the new dragon to be my true god.. but yet I fear that when I do die not only will my Val friend be lost without my guidance and protection, but that my soul will be devoured by my ancestors god. As a ape that has seen the world of the spirits.. what do you know of these things?

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Ryan Ramsey
Lo Gorie- Dark-Kin Barbarian 1 & Fighter 3. FL: Legio Anguis Reptatus.
Savic No Taste- Ghost Scale 1.4 Expert, Exile, Assassin Initiate, Weirdo.


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 Post subject: Re: Postings of a Heretic
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 5:03 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
Posts: 767
Location: Michigan
RexSplode wrote:
Greetings.. Please allow me to introduce myself. I am Savik No Taste, Ghost Scale. Closer of Gates, Slayer of Demons, Chef of Tasty Delights; and traveling companion to a long time friend and Val'Tensen, Oman.

I find your conversation interesting. The discussion of souls in particular is of interest to me. For you see, I'm not sure how much is known of my people and their history to you. We were once part of the Black Talon clutch, but split off in hopes of finding warmth and shelter far closer than the Sulfuric Marsh of Milandir. It was there that my ancestors found our one true God. Herka, the God of Stone. My time with the clutch was limited as I soon set out for Milandir, only to be exiled some time later. It is all but a distant memory to me, though I'm sure if I ever return I could find my way through our sewers.. No doubt Herka would guide me home.

The reason I write this letter is to ask, have you seen the souls of my people in this place you call dreamtime, or the dream world? I trust that my spirit will return to Herka's warm embrace upon my death.. but.. well the specter of Kassegore casts a fiery shadow over all us scaled creatures. Herka and my clutch are new and young. I fear the ancient dragon will come one day and reclaim all us migrants who fled from him. I don't hold the old dragon or the new dragon to be my true god.. but yet I fear that when I do die not only will my Val friend be lost without my guidance and protection, but that my soul will be devoured by my ancestors god. As a ape that has seen the world of the spirits.. what do you know of these things?


Souls are a different beast than the spirits that inhabit dreamtime. To know more about souls, pray to Herka, for I am certainly no expert.

My guess, and that is all it is, is that spirits in dream time are more a reflection of intellect or a mind (for where else do dreams come from?) than souls. At some juncture, if a being manages to enter dreamtime, it might be possible for their soul to remain there, but I would think that is the exception rather than the rule.

I have known shaman of Jeggal Sag who are very powerful in dreamtime and have met spirits with whom they are known, so Ssethrics definitely influence dreamtime. But if by "my people" you mean the Ghost Scales, than no, I have not seen any Ghost Scale related spirits in dreamtime, though I have also never gone there in the sewers of Coryan either, so the lack of evidence should not be taken as a lack of presence.

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AKA Kavaris, awakened "Human" from the Hinterlands, psionic transmutation specialist, adventurer, and no one important


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 Post subject: Re: Postings of a Heretic
PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:18 am 
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Location: Temple of the Pantheon, First City
Honored Sir or Madam,

If I may be so bold, what path of Spirit-talking and Shamanism do you follow? I make no subterfuge about my query: I am interested solely in the safety and salvation of your eternal soul in asking. I take an interest in those whom I fear - I say fear, but I mean it in the literary sense rather than the literal, as I am incapable of feeling such things - are squandering, abusing, or otherwise risking their souls, because I have the unenviable position of not having a soul of my own - making me particularly sensitive to such matters. Please do not take yours for granted, and give due consideration to its salvation in the hereafter.

I would not be so foolish as to think that you would abandon your ways, but I would ask you if you have heard of the path of the Dacoi? These Undir wise-men talk to spirits, but they do so in a way that honors the Pantheon of Mankind. I have learned in perhaps the hardest way imaginable that one must never be completely hide-bound to one's preconceptions, and I know that the Pantheon would look more favorably upon the Dacoi than upon other spirit-talkers whom do not accept the Twelve into their hearts, minds, and souls. No mortal or even immortal can pretend to know the will of the Gods, but I do know that I have spoken to the Love of Illiir herself, and she told me that the Gods love each and every child of humanity. You are such a child, and I pray that you cleave to that knowledge and their love even as you consort with spirits - that even if you must worship the Twelve differently you still keep your soul above any condemnation those spirits might attempt to heap upon it.

On another, more practical note, I'd like to point out to the other scholars and religious personages here that Dreamtime cannot possibly be solely a realm of the soul. I say this with certainty, because I have participated in a ritual that took me into a Dreamtime realm... and I did so whilst I had no soul, mine having been consumed by Neroth in my first Rebirth more than a year prior to that event.

- Ser Adelheidis Sigrid val'Tensen of Moratavia


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 Post subject: Re: Postings of a Heretic
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:27 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
Posts: 767
Location: Michigan
Heidi val'Tensen wrote:
Honored Sir or Madam,

If I may be so bold, what path of Spirit-talking and Shamanism do you follow?....

I would not be so foolish as to think that you would abandon your ways, but I would ask you if you have heard of the path of the Dacoi? These Undir wise-men talk to spirits, but they do so in a way that honors the Pantheon of Mankind. I have learned in perhaps the hardest way imaginable that one must never be completely hide-bound to one's preconceptions, and I know that the Pantheon would look more favorably upon the Dacoi than upon other spirit-talkers whom do not accept the Twelve into their hearts, minds, and souls. No mortal or even immortal can pretend to know the will of the Gods, but I do know that I have spoken to the Love of Illiir herself, and she told me that the Gods love each and every child of humanity. You are such a child, and I pray that you cleave to that knowledge and their love even as you consort with spirits - that even if you must worship the Twelve differently you still keep your soul above any condemnation those spirits might attempt to heap upon it.


Dear Ser,

You may be so bold, for how else by asking questions can one learn? But I may also choose to demur in my answer and say only that I eschew some of the simplest definitions of “Paths” of shamanism. I consider myself a spirit-talker, which many believe to be a path in itself, but it is not, for all “shamans” speak with the spirits. I respect the gods of man as those who call themselves “dacoi” do, and I promise you that most spirit-callers do, for all those who deal with spirits encounter spirits in service to the gods (though that may not be obvious in meeting them). I would be most proud to me an oneiromancer someday, but do not consider myself even a neophyte in those studies yet.

For now, I find my greatest joy being found in enshrouding myself in the spirit of a raptor so that I may fly. That may make some consider me to be a “skin-dancer” as I have heard it described, but since my higher motives are elsewhere, I do not consider that to be my path.

I will explain to you a bit of the secret history of the spirit talkers, since you brought up of the Dacoi. This truth also explains much of the priests’ fears of the shaman. The Dacoi’s attempt to pay homage to the spirits through shamanism and the gods through prayer is brought about through a failure to remember their heritage as spirit-talkers. The earliest contacts between man and the gods were through the spirit-talkers, as when we explored the realm of dreams we encountered the servants of the gods and came to be aware of them. It was through shamanism that we grew close to the gods and took them as our most powerful sponsors. Not just as gods, but as sponsors, advisers, and peers, and that is the way shamans relate to the spirits. This was clear, as the Undir new Yarris long before the arrival of the Pantheon on these shores. In this way shaman who grew close to the Gods did not need to serve only one, the way priests do, but could draw from all of the gods as shaman learn to draw from numerous spirits. As we learned from the Gods, they taught us a new way, a way dependent of complete supplication and faith, and from that the first priest was made. I do not call this new way a bad way, as the gods are due their prayers and worthy of man’s faith, but it is a more supplicant position, and more limited than that experienced by spirit-talkers when dealing with the Gods. It is for this reason that priests can only serve one god now, or some amalgam of gods like the death mongers, instead of the whole pantheon.

“But wait,” you ask, “what about during the fabled imperium of man, when the Church was polytheistic and priests served all the gods?” The answer is simple. The famed priests of the pantheon, were shaman in service and cooperation with their spirit-mentors, not subservience to their individual Gods. The start of the time of darkness was when a servant of just one god, the Sword of the Heavens, in his fear and misunderstanding destroyed those who served all. During the time of darkness those that served all the gods were feared by those that served just one, viewed with jealousy, and destroyed. After all, they reasoned, why should we allow those who work with the gods to sit above those who work for the gods? And thus the position in society of the priesthood was secured when their very mentors and guardians were destroyed.

So now those powerful shaman who knew the rites and ways of the pantheon of man are gone, and the Dacoi are some pale reflection of a once great history. It is interesting to see, as the Dacoi strive to be more like priests, I have heard rumors of a group of priest going under the unlikely moniker of the “Orthodoxy” that seeks to become more like spirit-talkers in their quest to return to the pantheistic worship of the gods. I bid them good luck, as I think mankind needs to return to the ways of all the pantheon, but I think I will still endeavor to learn the secrets of the pantheon from “my end of things” so to speak.

Heidi val'Tensen wrote:
Honored Sir or Madam,
On another, more practical note, I'd like to point out to the other scholars and religious personages here that Dreamtime cannot possibly be solely a realm of the soul. I say this with certainty, because I have participated in a ritual that took me into a Dreamtime realm... and I did so whilst I had no soul, mine having been consumed by Neroth in my first Rebirth more than a year prior to that event.


Ahhh, a very cogent point! Thank you for that information, for while I have never heard of an undead entering dreamtime, this does a very good job of supporting what I have said before about the dreamtime truly being a realm of the mind, if an undead can enter it. Thank you.

sincerely,

anonymous


[[Out of character point here - This is written from the perspective of an ARG character. So currently, at least, there are no "paths" for such things as Dacoi, skin-dancers, or the like. Not even an Ehtzara! Hopefully, the forthcoming Kio/Undir book will provide some additional paths, talents, and versatility for human shamans, as the Ssethric book has for the non-humans. I would love to see it go through a review phase like the 5e book is where comments can be incorporated, so that I could help contribute.

Also, all postings are his perspective/beliefs/guesses/statements, and truth and especially accuracy aren't guaranteed. :) ]]

[[As a note, I edited this to say "Not just as gods". The "just" is new and more in keeping with what I was trying to say. My apologies if this causes confusion in down thread discussion. I think it is minor enough not to, but thought I should make clear my edit here 7/12/17. Then I edited it again to add in this note.]]

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AKA Kavaris, awakened "Human" from the Hinterlands, psionic transmutation specialist, adventurer, and no one important


Last edited by toodeep on Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:30 am, edited 2 times in total.

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