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 Post subject: Re: Legends of Arcanis Campaign Changes - Effective January
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:12 pm 
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wilcoxon wrote:
I understand the reasoning for getting rid of earning a living for all mods (simpler and no questions). However, I still think it sets a bad precedent in giving players who have already completed Crusade a significant monetary advantage over those who are still playing their way through it. I did some quick calculations - earning a living was about a 25% bonus to wealth across the entire Crusade Arc (~3Gc when mods gave ~12Gc) - not game-breaking but that does give 60% of an extra rune or (cheap) exceptional weapon.


Considering that most players didn't do it every adventure, the average per adventure was about 10 Sc, and there was an opportunity for more than 12 Gc, I don't think it's going to significantly cause problems for new players.

John

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 Post subject: Re: Legends of Arcanis Campaign Changes - Effective January
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 12:28 pm 
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Location: Toronto, Ontario
wilcoxon wrote:
I understand the reasoning for getting rid of earning a living for all mods (simpler and no questions). However, I still think it sets a bad precedent in giving players who have already completed Crusade a significant monetary advantage over those who are still playing their way through it. I did some quick calculations - earning a living was about a 25% bonus to wealth across the entire Crusade Arc (~3Gc when mods gave ~12Gc) - not game-breaking but that does give 60% of an extra rune or (cheap) exceptional weapon.


How exactly does it set a bad precedent? And having established that, do you genuinely think that the new players will even notice they are 'missing' something unless (or even if) someone goes out of their way to point out to them: "Hey, everyone else who played these before you had something called an Earning a Lifestyle roll that gave them extra cash. You could have gotten an extra rune if you'd played earlier"? I suppose my fundamental question is: Why does this matter so much to you?

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 Post subject: Re: Legends of Arcanis Campaign Changes - Effective January
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:37 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:30 pm
Posts: 193
As the one that was recently harping about 'bad precedent', I'm actually okay with this change. Really, it's no different than -for example - a software update to a video game or a clarification/ruling on the existing rule set. I do think it kinda bites that the EAL roll is going away while there are still mods that give 0 coin (really sucks for those people that expend blast powder), but them's the breaks.

wilcoxon wrote:
I understand the reasoning for getting rid of earning a living for all mods (simpler and no questions). However, I still think it sets a bad precedent in giving players who have already completed Crusade a significant monetary advantage over those who are still playing their way through it. I did some quick calculations - earning a living was about a 25% bonus to wealth across the entire Crusade Arc (~3Gc when mods gave ~12Gc) - not game-breaking but that does give 60% of an extra rune or (cheap) exceptional weapon.


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 Post subject: Re: Legends of Arcanis Campaign Changes - Effective January
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:34 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
Posts: 1032
Njal Val'Assante wrote:
How exactly does it set a bad precedent? And having established that, do you genuinely think that the new players will even notice they are 'missing' something unless (or even if) someone goes out of their way to point out to them: "Hey, everyone else who played these before you had something called an Earning a Lifestyle roll that gave them extra cash. You could have gotten an extra rune if you'd played earlier"? I suppose my fundamental question is: Why does this matter so much to you?


It's a bad precedent because you are not treating all players equally - some got EAL rolls while any newer players will not. I'm not sure how many new players (that aren't already aware of it) will notice the lack of EAL (I would have as I tend to read all the rules).

It matters because, to me, that's always been a fundamental tenant of every "living campaign" system I've been a part of - all players are treated equal (if you play the same things, you can get (potentially) exactly the same rewards - there are special events that you'll miss out on if you didn't play but that's pretty much it).

The big difference I see between this and mith's "software update to a video game" is the software updates always retroactively affects everyone (for multiplayer online games anyway). Retroactively affecting everyone in a non-computer system isn't really feasible so I'm not suggesting that (just pointing it out as a difference).

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 Post subject: Re: Legends of Arcanis Campaign Changes - Effective January
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:54 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:36 am
Posts: 1544
Wilcoxcon dude, the rule has been decided and i think at this point your just railing against the rules.

you are going to have the exact amount of money as like 90% of the campaign, that rule was done away with because most people didnt do it.

sorry but at this point please just accept the rule and move on.

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 Post subject: Re: Legends of Arcanis Campaign Changes - Effective January
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:01 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:03 pm
Posts: 179
Location: Mahwah, NJ
Will,

I have a simple question. How does somebody who did take advantage of the EAL while it was still taking place in the Crusades Story arc affect you as a person or your character? There is no competition between players to see who has the largest cache of gold or the most runes. This campaign is not about the "Haves" or "Have Nots" and should never be treated as such. I have been involved in various Director positions for Living Campaigns starting with the one that started it all, Ravens Bluff: The Living City. If there is one thing I have learned during all of my experiences is that no matter how many rules changes or updates you make for the betterment of the campaign, you will never be able to please everybody. We weighed the pros and cons of these campaign changes and we stand by them 100%. The new rules are simple. They are efficient. Anything that resembles a "Grandfathers' Clause" would just complicate matters. I am sorry that you feel different but in the long run, these changes are best for the campaign as a whole.

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 Post subject: Re: Legends of Arcanis Campaign Changes - Effective January
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:40 pm 
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If making 3 less gold than some (few) other players is such a horrible thing, then I propose that you play this campaign for the wrong reason(s).

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 Post subject: Re: Legends of Arcanis Campaign Changes - Effective January
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:19 pm 
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frzntundra4 wrote:
If making 3 less gold than some (few) other players is such a horrible thing, then I propose that you play this campaign for the wrong reason(s).


If someone is enjoying themselves in the campaign and are not detracting from the enjoyment of others I am not going to throw stones.

I agree with the underlying assumption of Wilcox that we want the campaign to be fair to all players in reality and also in perception. So I'm not totally going to dismiss his concern. At the same time, as has been pointed out from other people there competing (IMO dominant) interests in this calculation (clarity and simplicity of implementation being paramount). And at the end of the day perfect fairness, if such a thing exists, still might not be good for the campaign.

This is not the first time the campaign has grappled with potential differences between new players and old players. The last row I remember that got heated was the issue of time units. In the old campaign characters were given 365 TUs per year and each adventure generally cost 10 TUs (the time of an Arcanis week). Crafting and making money could also eat up TUs. For people who were with the campaign from the beginning TUs were rarely an issue. But as newer players cam in and worked through older modules they discovered that you could eat up all a characters TUs and never get to the new mods. Newer players asked for some latitude and older players were somewhat offended by the request for "special treatment."

I remember arguing on the side that since we had all been using TUs the new players should deal with it. It was a "high-faluting" problem that there were "too many" modules for them to play. Long term players had gone through plenty of droughts of modules along the way. Was it fair to us that "newbies" could glut themselves in ways we could not? There was also the fear that easing time units would result in an even bigger "bloom" of player created magic items which was something of a concern at the time. We kept TUs. It was certainly the "fair" thing in that the system was equally applied to all.

But now a few years later I'm not sure it was the best call we could have made. Because players in different circumstances may be best served by different things. And its not necessarily about being equal but IMO is about being fulfilled. I don't know if the TUs should have been lidted but perhaps we could have done something a little differently to encourage newer players like exempting year 1 & 2 modules from TU costs.

So back to the case at hand, I think the real question is: even if not perfectly equal does the new rule about earning an income create any barriers to new players coming in and enjoying the campaign? And I think the answer has to be no. But if you have a serious argument about why this position is wrong in practical application then I am willing to read it.

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 Post subject: Re: Legends of Arcanis Campaign Changes - Effective January
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:41 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
Posts: 1032
SamhainIA wrote:
Wilcoxcon dude, the rule has been decided and i think at this point your just railing against the rules.

you are going to have the exact amount of money as like 90% of the campaign, that rule was done away with because most people didnt do it.

sorry but at this point please just accept the rule and move on.


I am accepting it and moving on. Tony specifically asked why I thought it was bad precedent and why it mattered to me so I answered him.

It will affect me less personally than truly new players as I've earned something approaching 1Gc from EAL rolls.

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 Post subject: Re: Legends of Arcanis Campaign Changes - Effective January
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:58 pm 
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Heh. I remember Time Units. I still love the idea of Time Units, *especially* for a Living Campaign. But I also like the notion of an organic world where you can't do everything, and you can't be everywhere, and even if you do experience the same story as someone else, you don't necessarily get the same outcome, experience points, or treasure.

I'll give you guys full transparency here: I like complicated. I like a world so detailed that I can immerse myself in the accounting and the currency exchange rates between countries, where I can purchase property and develop it, where I have to choose between playing 15 modules or losing out on the potential treasure and experience in exchange for access to a Prestige Class that only 2 other people ever took all the way to its end, where I can have an impact on the greater story myself, as well as hear the war stories of others and thrill to them. I love the fact that I didn't get to play every single module that was released under the first story arc with a single character, but I did hear about almost every single in game event by various Heroes who did. I kept my logsheets meticulously, and genuinely believe that all the additional options enhanced my enjoyment of the game.

When I originally volunteered to help with the campaign, I wanted (still do, for that matter) to write and create and provide opportunities for players to truly immerse into the world. I've learned that not everyone does so in the same way, and that no matter how hard we try, we will never be able to please everyone.

val'Holryn spoke very eloquently to what I feel about this; my personal feelings aside, this is what the players as a majority have asked for: more simplicity. And honestly, I'm okay with that, because ultimately what really matters is the stories we have to tell and share with each other. Not all players are equal. Not all builds are equal. Some players will have opportunities others will not. Not all Heroes will do well in all situations. Some Heroes will completely screw up everything by refusing to go along with what they are asked to do. Some Heroes will kill the prisoners that others wanted taken back alive. All this is okay, because that's part of a shared world. I'm genuinely sorry to those who feel otherwise, who must get everything that everyone else gets because otherwise they feel their Heroes lives are somehow diminished, but going forward I, the authors, editors, volunteers, and ultimately the PCI staff I suspect are going to do what we do, to the best of our ability, to make sure that we are telling a good story, because that's what you have truly asked us to do.

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