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VI Scroll of the Revelations of Illiir: Meaning & Context
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Author:  val Holryn [ Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:46 am ]
Post subject:  VI Scroll of the Revelations of Illiir: Meaning & Context
The 6th Scroll is most famously quoted for the following line:

ARP:G pg 341 wrote:
There are those who bow to the will of the Gods, and there are those who supplant that will with their own.


This quote usually gets dropped in the sections that deal with spell casters. It opens the spell casting section in the Core Book. But is this really what the scroll writers, much less Illiir, were talking about? My personal reading is more plain...that there are people who are serving the higher cause of the Gods, and selfish people doing their own thing...

Does anyone out there have any idea what the rest of the VI scroll says, or what the context of the quote is? Beyond headlining the spells section? :P

Nierite wrote:
...snip...Eldritch is considered something of a Heresy, but there is nothing MECHANICALLY to prevent an Eldritch caster from taking Initiate...


I moved this over from another thread where we have been looking at the idea of a wizard being an initiate of the gods. I would love to hear comments about how herritical Eldritch casting is perceived by the player base. Although it is clear that some within the Church (Mother or Milandesian) think that Eldritch casting is an act of supplanting the will of the Gods (again see page 341). It also seems clear to me that Eldritch casters are not seen as heretical by the church leadership.

ARP:G pg 341 wrote:
(after an exchange where a kid asks a priest/tutor about sorcery, the priest says it supplants the will of the gods, and another kid asks if that doesn't make it heresy)..."What is considered heretical behavior and what has been accepted by the powers that be is not for me to decide, my dear. But holy Revelation clearly states any being, orgnization or power that seeks to elevate itself on par with the Gods is profane before the eyes of the Gods." There, that should be neutral and obsequious enough so as not to draw the attention of the Holy Inquisistion (the priest thought)


It has always been my understanding in the last campaign that the "common man" fears and blames arcane casters for unleashing the Time of Terror...a mostly false belief (with a little sliver of truth in it). Which is why eldritch magic can't be trusted...and sorcerers should be feared. More learned "elites" do not necessarily subscribe to this view.

But it seems to me in this campaign that the Church is inching closer to a confrontation with arcanists. Do others see this difference? Or is it just me?
Author:  PCIHenry [ Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: VI Scroll of the Revelations of Illiir: Meaning & Contex
Hello Eric,

Nice insights...and no, it’s not just you. As you suspect, there has always been a "card up my sleeve" attitude that some Church officials have. On the one hand, if interpreted strictly, all those who wield eldritch power are heretics in the eyes of the Church. They (Sorcerers) are and continue to be distrusted in the eyes of the peasants and are blamed for all sorts of calamities from the Time of Terror to drought and crop failure.

However, those in power see the benefits and potential threats of these manipulators of the ether, both in times of war and peace. The fact that a blatant user of the arcane was a popular Coryani Emperor (Nurion) further seemed to dam the potential torrent of condemnation and persecution that are always on the tips of the tongues of the ultraconservatives and demagogues looking for a convenient scapegoat.

But the threat is always there; like a dagger up a sleeve, hidden from view but not suspicion. Will times ever change enough that arcane users will have to submit to some sort of oversight from the Church at best or suffer an all-out witch hunt at worst?

Ah conflict and drama - the meat and potatoes of storytelling. :-)
Author:  val Holryn [ Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: VI Scroll of the Revelations of Illiir: Meaning & Contex
I'm still waiting for the adventure when we get to meet Nurion ... :D
Author:  Hat [ Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: VI Scroll of the Revelations of Illiir: Meaning & Contex
Hi Eric,

Nice topic. I had some thoughts along the same lines as Henry, though I was thinking more of the sorcerers that used to protect the Imperator and the Coryani Battlemages that work today. Nurion provides a better example. Interestingly the reference to the sorcerers guarding the Imperator are covered in the Mourners of Silence section in the CoH.

The fact that they existed and the Coryani Battlemages do is at least a nod to the general acceptance. Looking at Henry's commentary I would be curious to see how the more conservative members of the church would view the failure of the sorcerers to stop the Sword of Heavens. Would they view that as the power of the gods rightfully striking down those who got in their way? This would seem to have them supporting the overthrow of the Imperator leading to the fall of the 1st Imperium. Would they argue that the those who practice the arcane arts failed due to their arts being flawed as heretical? This would seem to put the person on the side of the Imperator against the Sword of Heavens. They could in fact argue both and sidestep the question of whether the Sword of Heavens should have succeeded.

The interesting potential sticking point for the church moving against Eldritch casters are the Sarishan Sorcerer Priests. What if it's clear for example that an individual is a devout follower of the MC and claims Sarish as a Patron? I'm not talking about them having any sort of mechanical divine mojo here. If all of the spells they used were ones that the Sarishans can cast, what then? If you grant any exceptions, where does the line stop? Politics, judgement, interpretation and perspective become the governing force.

As Henry mentioned, great fodder for drama and adventure.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul
Author:  PCIHenry [ Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: VI Scroll of the Revelations of Illiir: Meaning & Contex
Hello Paul,

Hat wrote:
The interesting potential sticking point for the church moving against Eldritch casters are the Sarishan Sorcerer Priests. What if it's clear for example that an individual is a devout follower of the MC and claims Sarish as a Patron? I'm not talking about them having any sort of mechanical divine mojo here. If all of the spells they used were ones that the Sarishans can cast, what then? If you grant any exceptions, where does the line stop? Politics, judgement, interpretation and perspective become the governing force.l


I think you're blurring the lines between game mechanics and story in the above example.

Calling Sarish your Patron and being a Sorcerer-Priest is very different and an easy distinction that the Church could make if they were going to pursuee an agenda of persecuting Sorcerers.

If you cast spells that mimic the flavor or even effect of a Sarishan spell, but have not been inducted into the Church of Sarish, etc. then your claim of protection saying that Sarish is your patron would fall on deaf ears. Even though Sorcerer-Priests wield the arcane forces similarly (if not exactly like) Sorcerers, they must have been taught certain ways in which to effectively manipulate the energy, ethical consideration and maybe even meditation in pondering the mysteries of Sarish, which Joe Blow Sorcerer would not.

Again - mechanics-wise, not a big difference. Story-wise...immense.
Author:  Hat [ Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: VI Scroll of the Revelations of Illiir: Meaning & Contex
Hi Henry,

I was trying to avoid the blurring. Sorry I didn't quite succeed. My intent was not to indicate that the two options were equivalent even mechanically. From the view of the caster (in story) they could see themselves as following the will and intent of Sarish. The church would obviously have clear ways of determining those who have been ordained and are following the proper Sarishan teachings. Perception and intent rather than implementation. Perhaps think of the eldritch caster as a wanna-be.

Sounds like it's cut and dry enough even from within the ranks of Sarishan Sorcerer Priests to eliminate sympathy for those cases.

It does raise some interesting questions about whether it's possible to be an Eldritch caster and pious. Based on the nature of divine magic requiring that true spark of faith to prime the charge/pull the trigger or what have you is it even possible? Does the church even accept that as a possibility? I'm thinking mindset here, not mechanics. Obviously any eldritch caster has to reject church doctrine at least as it pertains to the wielding of power. The average commoner can be pious and never cast a spell. Are arcane casters in general viewed even worse by the church regardless of the caster's behavior? If so, what's the church's true view of Nurion? You mentioned he was popular in general, but not necessarily the view of the church.

I'm curious - is it fair to say that story-wise that an eldritch caster would need to abandon and lose access to all eldritch power in order to make room for that spark of faith to exist?

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul
Author:  PCIHenry [ Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: VI Scroll of the Revelations of Illiir: Meaning & Contex
Hello Paul,

Hat wrote:
I'm curious - is it fair to say that story-wise that an eldritch caster would need to abandon and lose access to all eldritch power in order to make room for that spark of faith to exist?


No, that isn't correct. One can be a pious sorcerer (see Coryani Battle Mages as a possible example). One cannot be an arcane wielding priest, but there's no prohibition in being a faithful adherent of Illiir and be an arcane caster.
Author:  Nierite [ Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: VI Scroll of the Revelations of Illiir: Meaning & Contex
I think it is entirely possible to be Pious in the Mother Church and still be an Eldritch Caster, but I think that that person would be somewhat conflicted.

There are examples in the real world about people who embrace a lifestyle that is viewed as heretical or sinful, yet still go to church, believe in God, and espouse very religious attitudes. Leaving the real world aside, going to PCI's other major game Witch Hunter, there is on group of Witch Hunters which are devout Catholics in spite of the fact that the Catholic Church generally considers them to be evil and servants of the devil.

I would picture an Eldritch member of the Church as being just as devout as any, but also one torn between their chosen lifestyle (or powers) and the word of their Church/God. This would manifest as an individual with divided loyalties, which could make for some interesting roleplay IMHO.
Author:  val Holryn [ Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: VI Scroll of the Revelations of Illiir: Meaning & Contex
Nierite wrote:
I think it is entirely possible to be Pious in the Mother Church and still be an Eldritch Caster, but I think that that person would be somewhat conflicted.
...snip...
I would picture an Eldritch member of the Church as being just as devout as any, but also one torn between their chosen lifestyle (or powers) and the word of their Church/God. This would manifest as an individual with divided loyalties, which could make for some interesting roleplay IMHO.


Not necessarily. The Mother Church itself is conflicted on the issue. Legion priests and Temples in any large town or city could be neutral or supportive of Arcane casters. And the Old Codex of Magic demonstrates the Temple of Sarish as a strong supporter of the Sanctorum. So I believe in many places there would be no conflict between an Arcane follower and the words of the Church/God.

That said it seems there are storm clouds on the political horizon. If I were an eldritch practitioner I would have concerns over the drift of the Mother Church.
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