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 Post subject: Re: What is a Paragon?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:44 am 
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Hmmmmm. Related question:

How does one become a Paragon?

Is one born fated to take on the role? Does one slowly become worthy of the Title by years of embodying the thing one wishes to become a Paragon of? Does one go through a mystical event of apotheosis?

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 Post subject: Re: What is a Paragon?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 5:53 pm 
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Thank you everyone for thoughts and speculations. The campaign is complicated enough that sometimes I worry I am missing things others are picking up. I'll keep looking for further developments.

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 Post subject: Re: What is a Paragon?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 12:45 pm 

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The Theocracy of Canceri pg 9 wrote:
With each battle, the Sword of the Heavens slaughtered more of their numbers, vanquishing rebels by the thousands. At the darkest hour, when all seemed lost, two figures emerged to give the rebels a faint glimmer of hope. One a sickly boy whose power, which the Sarishians both marveled and cursed at, was the ability to break Oaths and the resultant effects. ...
The second figure to come to the aid of of the rebels was a mysterious sorcerer named Amath, who claimed to hold the secret to Leonydas' destruction.

The Theocracy of Canceri pg 14 wrote:
Before launching his crusade to retake the First City, Leonydas had been warned by Basuhe, the head of the Sisters of Nier, that the Avatar of the Oath Breaker had once again taken human form. She warned him that, like it had done millennia before, this creature would once more prove his undoing should it not be dealt with, once and for all. After many sacrifices and burnt offerings performed in the old ways, Basuhe divined that this creature could be killed within the holy inner chamber of ...


I purposely stopped the sentence short for suspense. But anyone who owns the book or pdf can read the rest.

My point is there was a second Avatar besides Leonydas, if Avatar=Paragon perhaps we could be dealing with several of them during this war.
The Theocracy of Canceri pg 14 wrote:
"Only one will emerge from <redacted>, Lord. The other shall suffer as few have in this life or the next." For the first time in his life, Leonydas val'Virdan was given pause, for he knew that Baushe spoke not with her own voice, but that of Nier Himself.

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 Post subject: Re: What is a Paragon?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 7:01 pm 
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Here's some out-of-character information to share about a Paragon whom I met in an Arcanis game.

At one LARP in the Living Arcanis d20 campaign, as the game progressed I wound up working with a like-minded character towards achieving peace. At the end of the game, the player told me that he was playing an NPC: "the Paragon of Justice." I wrote that in my notes, and it seemed interesting and amazing to me at the time. My personal interpretation at the time was that this "paragon" was like Neil Gaiman's Endless or Piers Anthony's Incarnations of Immortality as being something separate from a God. Years later, I stumbled across my notes from that game after mention of Paragons came up again in the last year. I don't know whether Henry meant the same sort of Paragon then and now.

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Sestius Ovidius val'Mehan Comma and Khamat - psion patrician diplomatic legate and his Myrantian tutor
Quintus Ovidius val'Mehan - patrician military tribune
Amadi val'Abebi - Monk of Althares
Talathos - choleric Kelekene dabbler


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 Post subject: Re: What is a Paragon?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:52 pm 
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The Vault wrote:
The Theocracy of Canceri pg 14 wrote:
Before launching his crusade to retake the First City, Leonydas had been warned by Basuhe, the head of the Sisters of Nier, that the Avatar of the Oath Breaker had once again taken human form. She warned him that, like it had done millennia before, this creature would once more prove his undoing should it not be dealt with, once and for all. After many sacrifices and burnt offerings performed in the old ways, Basuhe divined that this creature could be killed within the holy inner chamber of ...

I purposely stopped the sentence short for suspense. But anyone who owns the book or pdf can read the rest.

My point is there was a second Avatar besides Leonydas, if Avatar=Paragon perhaps we could be dealing with several of them during this war.
The Theocracy of Canceri pg 14 wrote:
"Only one will emerge from <redacted>, Lord. The other shall suffer as few have in this life or the next." For the first time in his life, Leonydas val'Virdan was given pause, for he knew that Baushe spoke not with her own voice, but that of Nier Himself.

We still don't know what happened to Leonydas in that place. Some PCs went in afterwards, though, and we eventually learned that they did not find Leonydas inside. One can infer that the Avatar of the Oath Breaker unmade him again. Alternatively, we also know that the one force capable of manipulating divinations is the same force that inhabited the place Leonydas went, so maybe it was a trap and Basuhe's divination was false. As a merger of the two considerations, maybe the Avatar of the Oath Breaker is connected with the Silence.

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David Thomas Chappell
Sestius Ovidius val'Mehan Comma and Khamat - psion patrician diplomatic legate and his Myrantian tutor
Quintus Ovidius val'Mehan - patrician military tribune
Amadi val'Abebi - Monk of Althares
Talathos - choleric Kelekene dabbler


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 Post subject: Re: What is a Paragon?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:04 am 

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:17 am
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What if it hasn't happened yet?
What if Leonydas is still waiting for the Avatar of the Oath Breaker to show up?
The "ember bereft of fire" sounds like Leonydas to me, so I guess he's still alive. The rest of Basuhe's prophecy may not have occurred yet.
If 1 Paragon is running around causing trouble (The Destroyer) why can't other Paragons be for or against him.
Even the Valinor were divided when Manetas started his schemes, and some Valinor fought with him and others against him.
So like the Coryani Civil War we will see several Paragons come out of the woodwork taking sides.

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 Post subject: Re: What is a Paragon?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 5:56 am 

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My shorthand mnemonic for a Paragon is whoever would be on the roster of an Arcanis MOBA.

So:

Sskoreth -the essential Arcanis Sorcerer.

Melirios -effectively the Arch Lifewarden.

Leonydas.

Elandre -maybe. She has the power, but I'm not so sure about the "feel" of the title for her. She's kind of in between "Chosen of Illir" and "merely a Pope."

If the Hand of Cadic is still alive he might qualify.

The Sorcerer King. I have some doubts about his nomination, but those are somewhat poorly founded. Perhaps this is because he fits the idea too perfectly.

Hegrish Val'Mordane? Perhaps not. What was the name of that Val'Mordane bloke who died unremarkably but came back a Lich and skulked around being mockingly enigmatic for a while?

Master Smith Elabac though he might not be important enough to the fate of the setting for the title.

Xercel the Elder Kelekene Pyromancing Prick.

I wonder if it's possible to be a Paragon for one age and lose that status for the next? Was Sseth back in his day?

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 Post subject: Re: What is a Paragon?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:41 am 
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Nice list, ZCaslar. I infer that a Paragon is beyond what we've seen before--except maybe Leonydas, especially in his original, Theocracy of the Cleansing Flame form. Still, your list could be on target or at least a good brainstorming of possibilities.

ZCaslar wrote:
What was the name of that Val'Mordane bloke who died unremarkably but came back a Lich and skulked around being mockingly enigmatic for a while?

[...]

I wonder if it's possible to be a Paragon for one age and lose that status for the next? Was Sseth back in his day?

Porphal val'Mordane died and inexplicably came back, supposedly under the will of Neroth. He wasn't a liche exactly but an undead. I tried talking with him (NPC) at a Nishanpur interactive once, but I couldn't discern anything about him or his nature or purpose.

I don't get any indications of Emperor Sseth as paragon-level, though the 1st ed. Ssethregore book does say that he's actually still alive and tortured, held as a trophy of the the naga emperor of Ssethregore. (I imagine like Han Solo in Jabba's palace, except with silent screams, moving eyes, and a look of terror that slowly changes.) I know a few people have interpreted one prophecy about three heads on a dragon as indicating a struggle for the rule of the Ssethregoran Empire, and I suspect they may be onto something.

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Sestius Ovidius val'Mehan Comma and Khamat - psion patrician diplomatic legate and his Myrantian tutor
Quintus Ovidius val'Mehan - patrician military tribune
Amadi val'Abebi - Monk of Althares
Talathos - choleric Kelekene dabbler


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 Post subject: Re: What is a Paragon?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:00 am 
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The Vault wrote:
What if it hasn't happened yet?
What if Leonydas is still waiting for the Avatar of the Oath Breaker to show up?
The "ember bereft of fire" sounds like Leonydas to me, so I guess he's still alive. The rest of Basuhe's prophecy may not have occurred yet.

I certainly concur that the "ember bereft of fire" sounds like Leonydas, but I suspect he's gone. [Aside: I try to look for alternatives, such as "ember bereft of fire" also fits the Kelekene since Keleos is "lost."] The heroes who went into the Citadel of Silence [former Citadel of Nier] after Leonydas did not find any indications of him. Instead, the Silence in control of it and the surroundings, represented by a shapeshifer who could tempt and offer rewards and had imprisoned a Valinor, the Reluctance of Hurrian (and whom I suspect was trying to pry long-lost secrets from the Valinor's memories). If the Silence can capture a Valinor, how could Leonydas pass through intact and not be affected by the Silence nor the release of the Valinor and subsequent Storm? [See the amazing adventure "Whispers in the Dark" and the short story "The Storm" about the exploration of the Citadel.]

In Nishanpur, the Erdukeen prophetess (Sister of Nier) Bashue said that Leonydas had told her that he was unable to hear the Gods' voices (or maybe it was just Nier's voice) any more after he awoke from his imprisonment. I don't know whether that was because of rituals involved with the imprisonment or a change to the Gods. (Or because his insanity was cured.)

The Vault wrote:
If 1 Paragon is running around causing trouble (The Destroyer) why can't other Paragons be for or against him.
Even the Valinor were divided when Manetas started his schemes, and some Valinor fought with him and others against him.
So like the Coryani Civil War we will see several Paragons come out of the woodwork taking sides.

That's a good idea! Maybe once one domino falls, the rest may come after. Sort of like there's a general non-interference policy, but once someone breaks the rule, the others may as well.

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Sestius Ovidius val'Mehan Comma and Khamat - psion patrician diplomatic legate and his Myrantian tutor
Quintus Ovidius val'Mehan - patrician military tribune
Amadi val'Abebi - Monk of Althares
Talathos - choleric Kelekene dabbler


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 Post subject: Re: What is a Paragon?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:36 am 

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I'll note though that after Leonydas went in, the adventurers went in. The adventurers never even made it to the citadel before being captured, so they have no idea if Leonydas was somewhere inside still fighting. Then the entire place was blown to heck by an angel self destructing.

The wording on the prophecy (that as far as I know none of our characters have a hope in heck of ever having learned) said something along the lines that if Leonydas went in to face the paragon of the oathbreaker, that only one would emerge. There was no timescale involved. So if Leonydas hung on until the explosion, and survived it, that could count as a win for him.

Also, there are always rumors that he could return yet again.

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