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 Post subject: What is a Paragon?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:39 pm 
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From the prophesies of the Blessed Lands I read that the Destroyer is a Paragon. And can only be defeated by another Paragon. But I do not understand what Paragons are. Was Leonydas a paragon? Is the Sorcecer King a Paragon? Elandre? All old elorii?

What do we know as players? As characters?

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 Post subject: Re: What is a Paragon?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:05 pm 
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Think of them as D&D Epic level characters.

Mere mortals (Tier I-V) cannot influence their fate without divine intervention.

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 Post subject: Re: What is a Paragon?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:17 pm 
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Location: Portland OR
I think it could be more complicated than that.

Let me start by saying IC and OOC I have no firm idea of what a Paragon is. I think "epic level" is a big piece of what makes a Paragon. That seems pretty clear to me. But I also think there is more to it than that. In the old campaign were Menesis or Calcestus or Morushun Paragons? They were all "epic level." But I am guessing they weren't all paragons. Maybe none of them were Paragons.

Similarly I don't think epic level "non humans" like Loshnek or Manetas qualify as Paragons. I think Paragons have to rise from & transcended ordinary mortality in some way.

It's also possible that they need to embody a religion (and/or a cause, nation or quality like "Justice"). I am guessing OOC you need to be a paragon of something.

I am pretty sure Leonydas was a Paragon. It seems likely to me that figures like the Sorcerer King, Elandre and the Tyrant Natuus (sp?) are at least contenders for the title of Paragon.

Anyone else with thoughts?

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. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


Last edited by val Holryn on Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What is a Paragon?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:40 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:08 am
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Hello,

I'm looking forward to seeing how this conversation evolves, however I will offer this small insight, to avoid false leads.

The term "Paragon" is used as an "In Story" designation, rather than a game mechanic term.

And while Eric is very perceptive in stating that Menesis and Calcestus, to name a couple, were "epic level" game mechanic-wise, they were not Paragons.

Having said that, I'll take a back seat to this conversation and just enjoy the ride. :-)

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 Post subject: Re: What is a Paragon?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:50 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
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Location: Michigan
A total random theory that I have proposed is that each god gets one paragon, and that the paragon is the proto-god. After all, we know that the pantheon can time travel. We suspect the "the entire pantheon is a family" story is false. So where did the gods come from? With time travel, it means they could have started as mortals and risen to godhood at separate times/speeds and then time travelled back together to start the pantheon. Obviously a mortal destined to be Nier would connect well with Nier... thus Leonydus.

This obviously means that killing a paragon would be bad.... very, very bad....

But its totally a wild guess sure to make Henry laugh.

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 Post subject: Re: What is a Paragon?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:28 pm 
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I can't help but think of the Norse Norns or the Greek Moirai, who would spin the threads of fate for every person. It was believed in these religions that some special people (often heroes, or leaders) would have a special thread, around whom the tapestry of life would be formed. The book series Wheel of Time had a similar concept, wherein there were certain people whose actions would actually bend fate around them.

Quote:
par·a·gon
ˈperəˌɡän/
noun

1. a person or thing regarded as a perfect example of a particular quality.
2. a person or thing viewed as a model of excellence.

I do not recall the term 'Paragon' ever appearing in the old 3.0/3.5 campaign, but I suspect that it refers to very special people who are the epitome of their race (Leonydas was the ultimate val'Virdan). I'm guessing that there is rarely more than one of them in a generation, and that the world often goes generations without one appearing.

Aside from the Prophesies, does anyone else remember seeing any 'paragon' references? We might be able to figure out more, if there is more context.

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 Post subject: Re: What is a Paragon?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:35 pm 
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Quote:
par·a·gon
ˈperəˌɡän/
noun

1. a person or thing regarded as a perfect example of a particular quality.
2. a person or thing viewed as a model of excellence.

That's a good place to start. Thanks.

acurrier wrote:
I do not recall the term 'Paragon' ever appearing in the old 3.0/3.5 campaign, but I suspect that it refers to very special people who are the epitome of their race (Leonydas was the ultimate val'Virdan). I'm guessing that there is rarely more than one of them in a generation...snip...Aside from the Prophesies, does anyone else remember seeing any 'paragon' references?

I also do *not* remember the term paragon being tossed around in the First Campaign. I think the prophesies are the first/primary source of this term. Though this plot arc is called "the War of the Paragons."

That questions the idea that there is usually only 1 per generation. Obviously there are at least Two of them "out there" this generation for the war to take place.

Leonydas. I think that he is a Paragon...and the best fit so far for the "ember bereft of fire" so I assume we will be seeing him at some point. It not clear to me if he is the paragon of the val'Virdan or the paragon of Nier. The difference might be important. Ken's idea of "Porto-gods" would lean toward Nier...not that he's necessarily on the right track. Just that he has an interesting idea. If instead paragons represent races or bloodlines that would be interesting too.

Would Elebac potentially be the paragon of the Dwarves? Is Magros the paragon of the Malfelens? I don't think either of those feel right.

One thing that confuses Tukufu is that the Destroyer is opposed/defeated by the "Ember bereft of fire," but Calemnon is worried about some guy named Merric. To my knowledge Merric has nothing to do with fire (though since I know virtually nothing maybe we'll learn more as we go) Are there more than 2 Paragons? Is it possible that the War among the Paragons is just them jockeying for position as the Destroyer forces the hands of the paragons who would prefer to be hidden? If true then the war among the Paragons is just a warm up for a future main event against the Destroyer...

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AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: What is a Paragon?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:17 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
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Location: Michigan
I believe Vexing Priests also mentioned a potential Paragon of Neroth, and the Blessed Lands books calls Leonydus a paragon of Nier.

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 Post subject: Re: What is a Paragon?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:34 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:08 am
Posts: 1258
Hello Ken,

toodeep wrote:
... the Blessed Lands books calls Leonydus a paragon of Nier.


Good catch.

Yep, Leonydes is/was? a Paragon of Nier.

No spoiler here as it was in the Blessed Lands book (pg 186 for those keeping score at home).

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 Post subject: Re: What is a Paragon?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:39 am 
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Location: Portland OR
So if Leonydas was the paragon of Nier (as opposed to the val'Virdan) then that might might support the idea that the Paragons are agents of the gods (or perhaps more abstract forces than race). In this case Paragons seems to get closer to the idea of Avatars of the Gods. In fact Leonydas has also been called the Avatar of Nier.

So some Paragons are probably Avatars of Gods. Because I don't know much and am interested in getting a better idea of what these Paragons are, I immediately ask two questions: Are all Paragons Avatars of Gods? And...Are all Avatars of Gods Paragons?

The first one I have no idea. But I am suspicious of the idea that Calemnon is an Avatar of a God. I just don't see Illiir lurking behind his actions. Cal's status seems to derive from his nearly invincible psionic might. So while I guess it's possible Calemnon has become the Paragon of some lost psionic Diety of Dhar Zhan Vor I am guessing one can become a Paragon of *something* beyond Dieties.

The second question I also have no idea. But Our heroes fought the so called Avatar of Tzihet and I don't think it was a Paragon. One, our heroes defeated it without any help and fancy McGuffins. Two I don't think some crazy Starfish Godzilla thing qualifies (because I don't think extraplanar entities like Loshnek or Manetas qualify either). But that's just based on my tastes and intuition...as a guess it could be wrong.

So I am guessing that some Paragons are Avatars of Gods, and some Avatars of Gods are Paragons. But the circles of this particular Vern diagram do not completely overlap.

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Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


Last edited by val Holryn on Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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