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 Post subject: Gar
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:10 am 
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Supposedly the Ssethrics were created by Kassegore and Yig, the Elorii by their Elemental Lords and Belisarda, Humans/Val by the Pantheon of Man (we assume), etc. So following this logic I wonder who "created" the Gar. And who might their gods be? Yes they're "primitive" but I got the impression from the Blessed Lands book that there may have been a time when they were less so. Just one of the mysteries of this world.

Based on something Cody said in an earlier post I suspect they were once more widespread and maybe more civilized (perhaps along the lines of Roman era Celts or Germans). But as time passed and other more advanced peoples arrived they were pushed to the fringes and lost much of their civilization and culture and now exist as scattered primitive bands in the mountains and deep forests. Am I on track Henry? :)

One reason I ask is that I would like to see these guys maybe show up in a mod and be more than classic cliché "cave men." Give them something to make them seem more three-dimensional.
To be clear I'm at work right now without my books to double check things and memory is imperfect at best. :( I'd want there to be a story reason for them to show up (other than just "orcs" you have to defeat to move forward. While fun...been there done that...

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 Post subject: Re: Gar
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:57 am 
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So nobody wants to even start a conversation? Eric's right the board is quiet...maybe sliding towards comatose... :)

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 Post subject: Re: Gar
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:02 pm 
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Hmm, I thought I commented on this one. . .

The Bestiary volume 1 makes fairly clear that the Gar are VERY widespread, but that there are not a lot of them and that they occupy the margins of society. The Bestiary is commenting that they live on the plains, in the underdark/lavender way/Endless Dark/etc, we saw that there are some in the Corlathian Mountains (Vault of Larissa's Lament), there are some down in the Western Lands, there were some living in the Blessed Lands before the Ssethrics came, etc.

This likely has much to do with the fact that the Gar appear to be a tribal people, and historically tribal peoples tend to be highly mobile. They follow game, they move from place to place depending on the climate conditions (move south in the winter, leave a stream if it ever dries up, etc), which means that the populations spread out very far and the densities tend to be very low. As civilizations from Yahssremore to Coryan have expanded, the Gar have almost certainly been pushed into the ever-shrinking margins as they are simply out competed by more powerful sedentary populations.

As to them being a much more civilized people, that is entirely POSSIBLE, but not a certainty. In our world there are literally HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of years of societies which exist just like them without having ever had a 'ancient civilization.' Instead of equating them to the Celts or Germans, I think a closer example in our written historical record would be the Steppe nomads: they live as highly mobile tribal people hunting and gathering to survive, and occasionally join together in larger confederacies to challenge sedentary powers, but are often too fractious to really do much beyond temporary alliances. This we see with Rul Marrowdrinker and the Gar Ormal during the 1st War of Extinction, and I see him more as a Modu Chanyu (leader of the Xiongnu Confederacy) than as a settled monarch, or even a Mongol Khan (pre or post Genghis Khan).

Now, this doesn't mean that they WEREN'T a civilized nation before this, however. We see in the Eladru how they have degenerated over the centuries to become the brutish Cyclopses of Saam Ur after their civilization was ravished in the 2nd (?) War of Extinction an their surviving population was shoved to the margins. That said, everything we know of the Gar in written Arcanis history says that they were never more than a tribal society to me.

Based on the description of them physically in the Bestiary, I think it would probably be better to equate them with other human species, like the Neanderthals, the Desnovians, or even earlier species like Homo erectus. The Bestiary states that there is a lot of phenotypic differences between the various tribes (some with bigger tusks, others with more ape-like arms) which seems to me that they appear to be in the phase of Human evolutionary development between the development of Homo hiedelbergensis and that of modern humans were they are starting to speciate. This speciation happens when divergent populations grow more and more isolated from one another and start filling their niches better and becoming more different from one another. Additionally, the Gar example we have has Weak Characteristic (Mental), which suggests that they are less intelligent than your average human (not to say they're dumb, but their brains are less developed and on average less capable). Even after millennia in contact with races like the elorii and humans, only one (mythic) tribe called the Gar Tindal has developed iron technology, which is a bit of an abberation from our world where even the most nomadic peoples could work in metal if introduced to it (the Bantu, the Mongols, etc).

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 Post subject: Re: Gar
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:51 pm 
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Just to expand on Cody's post (he touches on it already), the various tribes would have a lot of variation between them in terms of cultural/technological sophistication. A small isolated group in the Lavender way is likely to be far less developed (though perhaps hardier) than a tribe of Gar which has regular contact, and perhaps occasional trade with other groups.

With that said, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a Gar group which mirrors the Altherians.

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 Post subject: Re: Gar
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:38 pm 
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Thanks for the input Cody. I was reading Horse Lords of Rohan (Cubicle 7/The One Ring) and the story of how the Dunlendings "devolved" after being pushed out by their lands by the Rohirrim got me to wondering if the Gar were ever more advanced. Don't get me wrong I never thought of them as anything above early Iron Age Celts, but I wondered about the idea (which shows up in Robert E. Howard's Conan series) of formerly civilized peoples being reduced to savagery by environmental catastrophe and being pushed to the fringes by new peoples migrating into their territories. Knowing Henry is a fan made wonder about the Gar. But your argument comparing to steppe peoples is pretty persuasive.

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 Post subject: Re: Gar
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 4:01 pm 
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If the Gar are 100% equivalent to the Orcs of 3.5, then I would expect there to be a "Gar Nation" in Uggur. We also know that there was a half-Orc legionnaire (name presently escapes me) who had built himself up a fairly hefty army in the region in an abandoned city, armed with 'modern' weapons.
However, this 'Gar nation' wouldn't be like Coryan or Altheria, but more like the Hinterlands: a bunch of distinct tribes, each with their own chiefs and interests, who generally share cultural views. Occasionally a leader will come up among them who can bring more tribes on board to create confederacies, but these will be fleeting.

The alternative to this is if you find a Gar version of the Iroquois/Haudenosaunee Confederacy. According to their oral tradition, this was founded by a trio of charismatic leaders who managed to convince five culturally similar, but competing, tribes to join in a pseudo-federal league, and manage to build in institutions so that the power of the league wasn't tied directly to them (meaning that the institutions would survive their own death, unlike groups like Atilla's Huns). If Uggur is considered to be more of a nation than a simple geographical area, this is what I'd expect would be the case.

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 Post subject: Re: Gar
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 4:03 pm 
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Haakon_val'Ishi wrote:
Thanks for the input Cody. I was reading Horse Lords of Rohan (Cubicle 7/The One Ring) and the story of how the Dunlendings "devolved" after being pushed out by their lands by the Rohirrim got me to wondering if the Gar were ever more advanced. Don't get me wrong I never thought of them as anything above early Iron Age Celts, but I wondered about the idea (which shows up in Robert E. Howard's Conan series) of formerly civilized peoples being reduced to savagery by environmental catastrophe and being pushed to the fringes by new peoples migrating into their territories. Knowing Henry is a fan made wonder about the Gar. But your argument comparing to steppe peoples is pretty persuasive.


Hey, the Gar may very well be that! For all we know they are the 'native' race of Arcanis and had great and tall cities which were marginalized by the Issori and the Eladru! That said, the story you are describing is basically what happened to the ELADRU, turning them into the Cyclopses of Saam Ur, and (while I could be wrong) it seems a little bit narratively lazy to use the same trope twice in a row on two races from approximately the same era.

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 Post subject: Re: Gar
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:46 pm 
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I didn't answer at first because I thought an answer of "I don't know" wasn't that useful. :P I know almost as little about the Gar as I do about DZV. They are "cavemen/orcs." And most people in the campaign look at them as ugly and subhuman. Nations probably think of them (if at all) as pests on the periphery of the world.

Where do they come from? So far back in time we mostly don't have myths of theirs legends. Do they have proper Gods? (Or souls?) That's pretty hefty metaphysics. If they originated on Arcanis (an "IF" of at least modest size since we know nothing of their origin) then Belisarda is a candidate for their creator. Along with some lost Diety(s) perhaps eaten by other elder Gods.

I would be careful about making guesses about how Ugger is comprised socially, At GAMESTORM in 2012 the word Henry used to describe them was "fascist" ... That's probably not the word you use to describe clans who struggle integrate into a large unit. I would not be surprised to discover (if we ever see it developed) that they have an extremely militarized society that looks more like "Orc Haina" than "Orc Vanomir."

The other word Henry used to describe them was "nasty."

Sounds like an opportunity of adventurers to me! ...

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 Post subject: Re: Gar
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:24 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
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We may learn more with the upcoming Kio book, as they supposedly had came from a home called Yhriwhon or Maalioch, probably in the mountains in what is now called Uggar. They apparently almost destroyed themselves in a civil war, leaving the question of, "what happened to the other side of the war?" Some say there are evil kio back at home who used Gar (I assume) as troops, servants, and slaves and drove the "civilized" kio we know and love out from their home. If true, it is very possible the Gar of the Uggar lands have learned lots as followers/servants of the Kio.

The question that I find most pressing, that it seems people should know, is whether humans and Gar can interbreed. We had half-orc, and I think half-hobgoblins in the campaign previously. It might indicate some relationship. Or it might not, after all, we have canon indicating giants and humans can interbreed, and no one seems to think they are related.

That of course make me wonder... Giants and humans can interbreed. Cyclops are related to giants. Can cyclops and humans interbreed? Also, what happens when/if a dwarf breeds with a non-cursed sort of giant? Do you get some sort of gigantic gnome? Inquiring minds want to know!

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 Post subject: Re: Gar
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:40 pm 
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val Holryn wrote:

I would be careful about making guesses about how Ugger is comprised socially, At GAMESTORM in 2012 the word Henry used to describe them was "fascist" ... .


I guess it depends what you mean by fascist. If you mean "brutally harsh", they may still be tribal in nature, as you could see in the Mongol Empire under Genghis Khan. I refer you to the law practices of the Yassa, the legal system set down by Genghis Khan to his people. If you have one tribe of Gar who managed to put together a stable coalition of other tribes, and then HARSHLY laid down the law to maintain order, I would describe that as fascist myself (though I do know that it is not the best definition).

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