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 Post subject: Re: Musings of a Canadian Nierite. . .
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 1:37 pm 
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Oh PCI, how you have provided so much depth in the universe for me to randomly muse over. . .

Moving back to the Val families from the Elorii, I shall take a look at everyones favourite question mark:

The val’Holryn

From a quick poll I ran a while ago, this family seems to be the most popular Val family out there (note: By Josh’s poll it is actually the val’Borda, but I digress). This seems strange to me because, aside from the name, it would be rare to find two val’Holryn characters with the same build. While all the Val Bloodlines can manifest divine powers associated with their God, the val’Holryn are unique in that they do not have powers of their own. Each individual val’Holryn has the power to manifest the bloodline powers of a single other Val family, meaning that you can have val’Holryn’s with val’Borda powers, with val’Sheem powers, with val’Abebi powers, even val’Inares powers (even though they are their own brand of unique, as we now know!).

How does this work within the (meta)physics of the world? Well, first let us specify the limits of this power. From what Uncle Henry has let us know, as far as the players are concerned a val’Holryn can only manifest the powers of the “Big 13” families: Abebi, Assante’, Borda, Dellenov, Emman, Inares, Ishi, Mehan, Mordane, Ossan, Sheem, Tensen, and Virdan. They cannot manifest the powers of the ‘newer’ Val families that were created well after the original batch, such as the Bausciz, Hamen, Vasik, Sosi, or Sungha. This suggests that whatever it was that gave the val’Holryn their ability to manifest other families’ powers was a thing that happened either in the past, or before these other families were created. I should note that I did not include the val’Cessari, the val’Trisin or the val’Haupt on this list because 1) we know almost nothing of the val’Trisin aside they are a Cadician family with a focus on music, 2) the val’Cessari are a mystery to all except Henry (and maybe the old Invisible Kings/Queens from the 3.5 days who got to play one as a gift from PCI), and 3) Henry has stated that the val’Haupt are not a ‘new’ family on the old boards, which means there could be more to them.

So, whatever it was that gave the val’Holryn this ability, it happened concurrent to or shortly after (comparatively, anyway) the foundation of the Big 13 families that we already know. It is not entirely clear if all of the Big 13 were the original Val families created by Illiir’s Declaration to the Valinor, but we have enough information on a few of them to at least strongly suggest such. Within the bounds of the rules, this seems to say that ONLY the Big 13 existed at the time of the First Imperium when the val’Holryn were created/gained their powers, but is this entirely true? All we know about these families is that by the time of the end of the First Imperium all of the Big 13 were well established. It should also be known that during the fight against Leonydis val’Virdan (the Sword of the Heavens) and his Theocracy of the Cleansing Flame which overthrew the Imperium of Man, the val’Holryn were considered a minor Val family (probably on par with the Bausciz, Haupt, and whatnot) rather than the major family they are today. The first known example of this family in written record was in the form of Prince (of what?) Volthar val’Holryn, the man who lead the armies who resisted the Sword of the Heaven.

So, we know that the val’Holryn were a minor family at the time of the First Imperium, and they are able to manifest the powers of the Big 13 which existed at that time. Neat, we have set some limits. . . or not. We add a further wrinkle into the tapestry when we remember that the Vals we know today were not the only ‘Divine beings’ that inhabited the First Imperium of Man: There was also the Uls. On the face of it, it is easy to ignore them because they are Uls, not Vals. However, Mr. Henry (destroyer of dreams and worlds) has stated clearly now that the Ul families of Khitan are simply rebranded Vals, rather than being a new thing in general, which means that the Ul families we know about are in fact Vals, and that at least one of them (the ul’Tai/val’Tai of Sarish) existed in the First Imperium due to a story involving the last of a Dynasty of val’Assante’ Emperors from the Canceri Sourcebook. So, in this case, can the val’Holryn manifest Ul powers as well?

Within the scope of the game as we know it, no they cannot for the simple reason that the Ul powers have not been written yet where we players can see them. Within the scope of the Universe, however, who knows?! There are two reasons why a val’Holryn cannot manifest Ul powers that I can think of: 1) the Uls (despite being Vals) were like the val’Baucsiz and created after the Holryn were created (in their present form), or 2) Whatever it was which lead the Uls to consider themselves a new breed (abandoning the Val title), it also somehow removed the ability of the val’Holyrn to manifest their powers. This suggests pretty heavy stuff to counter what appears to be the divine mandate of the Gods, but I’m sure stranger things have happened on Onara.

Another possible reason why the val’Holryn can only manifest certain family powers is if, for some reason, they can only manifest the powers of the LARGEST families, acting as something like a Divine antenna for Bloodline powers. More val’Assante’ born last year, more val’Holryns with Assante’ powers. More val’Mordanes the next year, more Mordane powers in the next year’s crop of val’Holyrns. If this is so, that means that they might be able to manifest some “other families” as well, but the actual people manifesting those powers would be lost in the rounding

Okay, so we’ve put some limits as to how their powers work, so what do we know of where they came from? Were the val’Holryn’s made the way they were from the gate, or have they somehow acquired this power? Well, if you dig into the 3.5 days and look at their family Psionic Prestige Class (ahh, memories. . . ) we get a hint where their powers may have come from. According to the book Psionics Unbound, the val’Holryn have the ability to observe any psionic power that was used within sight of them (with appropriate checks, of course), and use that power even if they do not know it. As a character progressed in that class, they then gained the ability to take this psionic power, and then ‘overwrite’ one of their existing powers with the new one.

Some may say, “but Nierite, you crazy person you, Psionic spells from 3.5 have nothing directly to do with Bloodline powers!” This is indeed true, but only to an extent. On one hand, several of the Bloodline powers from the 3.5 days were Psi-like abilities, drawing a connection between the Val families powers (both Psionic and Divine bloodline). On another hand, the val’Holryn developed the ability to ‘swap powers’ with other Psionics, is it possible that they used a similar process to also ‘steal’ bloodline powers? This is complicated by the fact that any such ritual or process to do this within established canon only works for the individual, but if we want to get something like what the family has presently—where two val’Holryn’s, one manifesting the Borda powers and other manifesting the Dellenov powers, could in theory have an offspring with Ossan powers—this would have to have been added to the family as a greater hole (germline changes).

If they acquired their powers by ‘swapping’, then did they ever have their own powers to being with? The Psionics Unbound echoes this thought with theories that if the val’Holryn still have any bloodline powers unique to them, they are either extremely subtle or only used among the family. However, if they simply learned a way of mimicking other powers, what happened to theirs? What God was their patron? There has been much talk that the val’Holryn were born of a Valinor of The Other, with their ability to mimic other beings being either an aspect of The Other’s powers or a survival mechanism for one of his scions to survive in a post-God’s War era. Perhaps their powers were weak and they used their mimicry powers to increase their own abilities? The only hint is a vague reference I remember that the val’Holryn’s are considered “of Illiir.” I can’t remember where this came from (maybe from Eric/val’Holryn?) as I’ve searched the obvious places but can’t track it down. If this is true, however, then did Illiir grant them their powers because (as the leader of the Pantheon) he simply took powers to represent the united whole of the race, or did their abandon Illiir’s powers in favour of the mélange they presently have.

The final big question mark out there is the Order of the Phoenix, the most prominent Knightly Order which owes fealty to the val’Holryns and the Dukes of Tralia (there are surely others, but this is THE Order). This knightly order appeared—so goes the story—during the rebellion of the Milandesians against the Auxunite during the Shadowed Age, before the foundation of the Milandesian League. It is unknown if they were associated with the val’Holryns at this stage as it just references a “Phoenix Warrior,” but given how tied they are to the family it is a fair bet. In the Order, we know that the Knights bond with a special breed of Mastiff dog which has been merged with some sort of spirit in a Ritual of a Sarishan nature. This spirit does not appear to be infernal (else it surely would be detected by those with the talent) or any obvious form of elemental. Whatever the spirit is, it seems to be a willing participant in the bonding situation as otherwise it would surely take control of the dog and take revenge on those that trapped it.

But what is this spirit? The only hint we have as to something fishy going on with the Order (aside from their loyalty oath) is that anyone can join who is willing to swear fealty to the val’Holryns. . . except Kio. This seems a very arbitrary exception as the Kio and the val’Holryn of Milandir have (that we know of) almost no interaction. There is the swath of the Coryani Empire and the Sea of Coryan between them and Milandir, so few to no Kio would be involved in the Order anyway. However, they are not simply unlikely to join, they are BANNED from joing. Why is this? Did the Kio perform some slight against the val’Holryn in some ancient time? The Kio appeared almost out of thin air a couple thousand years ago (sometime between the end of the God’s War and the beginning of the Coryani era, most likely during the Shadowed Age) and they are even more mysterious than the val’Holryn in their own way. Is it the lack of an origin story which keeps them from being trusted?

Does it have to do with those spirits somehow?

My theory, however, is that whatever the val’Holryn are, the Kio are somehow related. From a physical standpoint, aside from being generally Caucasian in appearance they do not have any defining physical features in common. However, looking at a post by Henry Lopez (The God Emperor Himself) on the Arcanis Yahoo! Group, we know that Kio have very odd interactions with humans and Vals alike. Kio + Human = Kio. Kio + Val = val’Sungha. val’Sungha + Val = val’Sungha or Kio. val’Sungha + Kio or Human = Val = val’Sungha or Kio. The essence of the True Kio (as opposed to the Half-Kio of today) seems to have the ability to supercede all other human traits, including Valhood. Any Val who produces a Val offspring with a Kio will make a val’Sungha, which means that the Kio/Sungha have an ability to overwrite Val powers and replace them with their own heritage. This seems oddly familiar to the val’Holryn’s ability of mimicry, though while the Holryn seem to ‘steal powers’, the Kio simply take dominance over the others.

Perhaps the val’Holryn and Kio have a common origin? Maybe they both were followers (or the decedents of followers) of The Other? Maybe they were another breed entirely which seeked to infiltrate the rest of the lands? Maybe the objections of the Knighthood is due simply to a long forgotten, but still maintained vendetta? Maybe it is simply a red herring. Who knows (beyond Henry, Holy be His name)!

_________________
Cody Bergman
Legends of Arcanis Campaign Staff
Initial Author Contact/Adventure Vetting

Haakon Marcus val'Virdan, Divine Holy Judge of Nier
Ruma val'Vasik, Martial Crusader and Master of the Spear
Jorma Osterman, Arcane Coryani Battlemage


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 Post subject: Re: Musings of a Canadian Nierite. . .
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 2:01 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:36 am
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Knight of the Phoenix and the Kio

ok Big picture, Undir and Naori are undeniably elementally flavored races, Kio was also associated with elemental Air ( Scion of Air, Magic of Arcanis)

the Order of the phoenix specifically says that it binds a spirit into the dog, perhaps this is an elemental spirit (or even a Kio spirit) being thus bound and Kio would get an uneasy feeling about it and beable to detect it along the psychic bond.

but thats just unfounded, I thought the KoTP doc said elemental but it says spirit

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--Josh Elliott
Oswald val'Inares V, The Seeker of the Val'Inares
Harvester Lord of the Eastern Fields of Iowa


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 Post subject: Re: Musings of a Canadian Nierite. . .
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:22 pm 
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More information about the VAL Haupt, the distinction between VAL and UL and a reference to a val'Holryn hero contemporary with Volthar are all forthcoming in the history section of the Blessed Lands book.

For my part I have begun to speculate that the val'Holryn family does not descend from a valinor at all.

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Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Musings of a Canadian Nierite. . .
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:42 pm 
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first off, let me say: good posts overall sir.

on the elorii/ardakene and the issue of souls vs. spirits: you didn't address the kurenthe at all. I bring it up because as far as I know, the only elorii who we have seen use them are the ardakene (I could definitely be misremembering, but I digress).,

on the issue of the val'holryn: it's my belief that they might have been the product of multiple valinors, maybe one from each of the twelve gods each contributing a little bit to them. It would help a great deal, I think, if we knew anything at all about Holryn (the mortal champion who sired the line). This could be the reason, for example, why you would not get a val'haupt or a val'trisin val'holryn child. As Eric pointed out to me in the last campaign, it seems interesting that in the history of Arcanis, whenever something needs doing/some one has to take charge, the Val'Holryns are the ones to make it happen.


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 Post subject: Re: Musings of a Canadian Nierite. . .
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:47 pm 
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The val'Virdan tear it down, and the val'Holryn put it back together. By the way, we still don't know what family the First Emperor was, even if we now know his first name. . . ;)

Oh, and to the Kurenthe statement, take a read over the Seremas section of Eldest Sons (a D&D supplement written by PCI which greatly expanded upon Seremas). In that, we hear a tale of a Ymandrake Invasion of Entaris, which was foiled by the double Kurenthe of a Kelekene and a Marokene.

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Cody Bergman
Legends of Arcanis Campaign Staff
Initial Author Contact/Adventure Vetting

Haakon Marcus val'Virdan, Divine Holy Judge of Nier
Ruma val'Vasik, Martial Crusader and Master of the Spear
Jorma Osterman, Arcane Coryani Battlemage


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 Post subject: Re: Musings of a Canadian Nierite. . .
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:50 pm 
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if I remember that story (and it's been a few years), they had threatened it but didn't follow through, yet the elorii who sided with the SK did kurenthe. I could be confusing things though: I've gotten good at that lately :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Musings of a Canadian Nierite. . .
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:08 pm 
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Very interesting read, thank you. However, the one question that I have yet to see anyone ask (or at least that I can recall) is, "Why Arcanis?"

Why is it that the Other came here? Why did the human gods stay? Why are the Varn building a bridge to here? Why are all these, and other, oddities popping up here? Of course, the obvious (and cop-out) answer is that this is what makes for fun adventures and stories. But do you think that every other planet in the universe has the same issues? Or even most of them? I'm guessing not. I'm thinking that there is something in/on/about Arcanis that is extremely important to the cosmology of the universe. Is it because of what the human pantheon is doing with the timeline or the fight against the silence? Does it have something to do with what Larissa saw? Why?

I don't have any answers. But I wanted to put the question out there so that those of you with a better mind for these things than I have can think about it.

:)
Scott


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 Post subject: Re: Musings of a Canadian Nierite. . .
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:34 pm 
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DeadZone wrote:
Why is it that the Other came here? Why did the human gods stay? Why are the Varn building a bridge to here? Why are all these, and other, oddities popping up here?

What makes you think Arcanis is the first place? Maybe the Varn have already built bridges to (and conquered) many other worlds. Maybe the Gods of Arcanis are fighting an ancient war of attrition. I don't think we've ever really been given a larger picture of the cosmology of Arcanis, but one unifying factor for pretty well every being of power on Arcanis is that they came from somewhere else. I suspect that there is a much larger--and much more ancient--story to be told.

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aka Raseri 'Crash' val'Emman - Master of the Incandescent Flame (Martial 3.7)
aka Leif - Skohir Warped One (Martial 2.6)
aka Rurik - Nol Dappan War Priest (Divine 2.3)
aka Karthik - Tultipetan Stonemason (Expert 1.4)


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 Post subject: Re: Musings of a Canadian Nierite. . .
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:41 pm 

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Hello Scott,

DeadZone wrote:
"Why Arcanis?"


To my knowledge, you are the first person to ask that question.

While I'm not going to spill the beans on a forum post, I will say this:

There IS a reason why Arcanis is the focal point of such activity. That was my starting point in coming up with Arcanis and the over-arching plot.

So there is a reason and a logical one at that. I don't think you guys have all the pieces necessary to put it together yet, but feel free to theorize away.

Have fun!

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Henry Lopez
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PCI


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 Post subject: Re: Musings of a Canadian Nierite. . .
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:46 pm 
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PCIHenry wrote:
There IS a reason why Arcanis is the focal point of such activity. That was my starting point in coming up with Arcanis and the over-arching plot.

So there is a reason and a logical one at that. I don't think you guys have all the pieces necessary to put it together yet, but feel free to theorize away.


I think one of these conventions we need to get Henry really drunk, and see what comes out ;)

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Akira Currier
aka Raseri 'Crash' val'Emman - Master of the Incandescent Flame (Martial 3.7)
aka Leif - Skohir Warped One (Martial 2.6)
aka Rurik - Nol Dappan War Priest (Divine 2.3)
aka Karthik - Tultipetan Stonemason (Expert 1.4)


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