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 Post subject: Re: SS'Ressen Arcane Casters
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 10:19 am 
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Darn here I was writing a nice pithy commentary about this and Cody comes along and steals my thunder (and far more eloquently than me... :) ). Which is why I enjoyed playing a female Ss'Ressen priestess in Gleam of Fires with two males...<insert Cartman voice> "You must respect my authority!!" :D

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 Post subject: Re: SS'Ressen Arcane Casters
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 12:58 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:41 am
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Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Beautifully said, Cody.

I would like to also add that significant tweaks like this have happened "late in the game" in every campaign I have played. In LG, they changed how Ray attacks worked in regards to sneak attack dice, causing one friend to make significant changes to his Arcane Trickster. Another had to completely re-tool his fire Mage at Level 18 or so.

In 3.0/3.5 LA, they changed Warped One to be a semi-religious class, causing Dustin Reid (aka 'Gnomie") to change from a barbarian/warped one to a crazy alchemist creating his "bag bombs".

A friend of mine and I played Altherian Sharpshooters. In 3.0, we got the "kill shot" at level 9. With the 3.5 changes in the PGtA, we lost it until level 12. When we were level 13-14, the campaign ruled no auto-crits because of shenanigans others were pulling. The campaign director at the time even said "sharpshooters, given that they only have 1 attack should get the auto-crit, but we still aren't allowing auto-crits". My friend converted to a control Psion.

We understand and empathize that this will create problems for some characters. But, as Cody pointed out, male Ssressen are second class citizens. They are bred to hunt, fight, do menial labor, and possibly breed.

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 Post subject: Re: SS'Ressen Arcane Casters
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 1:07 pm 
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mighty28 wrote:
A friend of mine and I played Altherian Sharpshooters. In 3.0, we got the "kill shot" at level 9. With the 3.5 changes in the PGtA, we lost it until level 12. When we were level 13-14, the campaign ruled no auto-crits because of shenanigans others were pulling. The campaign director at the time even said "sharpshooters, given that they only have 1 attack should get the auto-crit, but we still aren't allowing auto-crits". My friend converted to a control Psion.


Having played with and judged several sharpshooters both at home and a cons I can tell you all about "shenanigans. One shot kills kept spoiling fights for others at the table. :(

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 Post subject: Re: SS'Ressen Arcane Casters
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 1:13 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:41 am
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I was one of those, Mike. At 20th level, with the tweakiest 1 shot I could do, I did @50-75 hp a turn (w/o a lucky crit). Of the damage dealers at our regular table, I was lowest. I was just spell disruption. A barbarian/fighter was dealing easily over 300. Same with Bowmen.

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 Post subject: Re: SS'Ressen Arcane Casters
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 1:19 pm 
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mighty28 wrote:
I was one of those, Mike. At 20th level, with the tweakiest 1 shot I could do, I did @50-75 hp a turn (w/o a lucky crit). Of the damage dealers at our regular table, I was lowest. I was just spell disruption. A barbarian/fighter was dealing easily over 300. Same with Bowmen.


Those crazy numbers make my head hurt. :( Which is why to this day I hate running high level tables! When I hear someone doing 300 points of damage in one hit I can't help but want to audit their character sheet. It just feels wrong somehow. Yeah I get the whole raging power attack stat-bumped cheesed out kill monster thing. But I don't like judging it because the mental gymnastics I have to go through to challenge that sort of cheese sucks all the fun out of the game for me.

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Ursula val'Holryn, Grand Master of the Tralian Hammer 2.2 [Martial]
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 Post subject: Re: SS'Ressen Arcane Casters
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 1:49 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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mighty28 wrote:
I would like to also add that significant tweaks like this have happened "late in the game" in every campaign I have played. In LG, they changed how Ray attacks worked in regards to sneak attack dice, causing one friend to make significant changes to his Arcane Trickster. Another had to completely re-tool his fire Mage at Level 18 or so.

<snip>

We understand and empathize that this will create problems for some characters. But, as Cody pointed out, male Ssressen are second class citizens. They are bred to hunt, fight, do menial labor, and possibly breed.


It could be that my experiences have been different because I have not played much d20 league (besides 4e where Hasbro/WotC was very permissive (I don't think anything was ever banned or changed significantly - the rule was "if we publish it, you can use it")). I've just played many other games and I don't remember any character-killing errata/changes anywhere near 5 years into the game/campaign.

I understand that males are second-class citizens but having Templars with DSC makes them much more effective as fighters - something that should be desirable given the relatively low Black Talon numbers.

I'm apparently the only one on the forums massively opposed to this change so I don't really expect a reversal (though I'm still hopeful). I'll just try to sum up briefly why this bothers me so much and why it might be a bad idea (some of this assumes existing characters must be rebuilt and will not be grandfathered):
  • The ARG rules have clearly and unambiguously said that male Ss'ressen Templars can take DSC for 5 years.
    • There has never been a hint that this was not intended. The first even hint of any change was Cody's announcement earlier in this thread lumping male Ss'ressen in with others that have had significant questions/confusion.
    • There has never been any question about it on the forums. I think everything else in Cody's announcement has been questioned openly on the forums (and all(?) previous similar errata had similar discussions).
  • Players have characters built around this rule that they've spent significant time and effort on for 4+ years.
    • This is potentially a character-killing change. Is this change worth potentially alienating players? Given the Arcanis player base, is it worth risking losing even one die-hard player?
  • The change does not mechanically improve the game (eg it's not fixing anything that is broken).
  • I believe some other significant changes have been deferred until a possible 2nd edition. What makes this one important enough to include now?

If existing characters will be forced to rebuild, can that at least be deferred until the new Ssethregore book is released (assuming the campaign guide will be out first)?

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 Post subject: Re: SS'Ressen Arcane Casters
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 3:07 pm 
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There will be rebuilds allowed in the campaign after every book is released. As a member of the campaign staff, I think it is fair to allow a certain grace period in rebuilding your character to reflect these rules changes (I myself have been forced to change my characters before based on a rules change). However, with Origins 7 weeks away, I believe that will be sufficient time to make your character accord to these rules.

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 Post subject: Re: SS'Ressen Arcane Casters
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 3:33 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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Nierite wrote:
There will be rebuilds allowed in the campaign after every book is released. As a member of the campaign staff, I think it is fair to allow a certain grace period in rebuilding your character to reflect these rules changes (I myself have been forced to change my characters before based on a rules change). However, with Origins 7 weeks away, I believe that will be sufficient time to make your character accord to these rules.


I thought these rules were only official once the new campaign guide is released?

Given that the Ssethregore book will be coming out soon and will affect the same players, why not defer this rules change forced rebuild until Ssethregore is released?

If you have any suggestions for how to rebuild and not destroy the character, I'm open to suggestions (if I just swap DSC for RP, that goes from 9 spells to 2 which is a massive decrease (much more severe than Cleric vs Paladin in D&D) and it gets worse at tier 3).

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 Post subject: Re: SS'Ressen Arcane Casters
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:06 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
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Location: Michigan
wilcoxon wrote:
If you have any suggestions for how to rebuild and not destroy the character, I'm open to suggestions (if I just swap DSC for RP, that goes from 9 spells to 2 which is a massive decrease (much more severe than Cleric vs Paladin in D&D) and it gets worse at tier 3).


Much more severe than cleric vs. Paladin in D&D? At 10th level a paladin has 2 spells, and a cleric has 20. How is this worse? At tier 3 you will get 1/4 the number of spells. Sure, not arguing it sucks, but it does allow you to choose what spell is most important to you and really work it, much like a paladin did in D&D.

Now, the introduction of some Templar specific spells might be an interesting idea in the Ssethregore book, much like paladin specific spells. Not spells a priest couldn't learn of course, but something they might culturally look down upon as a spell meant to help their lessers or something.

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 Post subject: Re: SS'Ressen Arcane Casters
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:46 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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Apparently I should have waited before posting my "summation" message. After more thinking triggered by Matt's post, I can sum it up more concisely and precisely:
  1. Male Ss'ressen Templars taking DSC has been unquestionably legal for 5 years (not even a hint that it wasn't intended).
  2. This rule change is not necessary. It may fit Henry's vision for the world better than the existing rules but the change does not make the game mechanically better (it is not fixing an issue with the mechanics). Given the extended time this rule has been as-is, I (personally) don't think that's sufficient reason to make such dramatic errata.
  3. I've spent 1000s of hours and $1000s over 4 years building up this character which was perfectly legal and not abusive or broken in any way. Now I'm being told that the entire concept is illegal and I must make a different character (at least with the existing pre-Ssethregore material, I can't think of any way to make a character close to Ss'kethis with this rule in place).

I know I'm very likely beating a dead horse (and I've been quite verbose) so this will be my last message about why the errata should not be implemented.

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Ss'kethis - Expert Holy Champion of the Fire Dragon 3.1
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