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 Post subject: Tier gaps, new players and other challenges with LoA
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 9:17 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:46 pm
Posts: 1353
Greetings,

One of the things I noticed and that got discussed on Sunday were the challenges with balancing tables given the increasing disparity of ranks between characters. There were a number of characters in the 1.7 range or so who had limited experience. Unfortunately most of the characters were 2.6 or higher. Players want to play their mains to continue to enjoy the experience and leveling, but that can also mean difficulties for lower level characters and a barrier to entry for new players. There's also the question of story appropriate for the mod in question. On the one hand it's easy to say make sure you have a variety of characters to allow for at least a decent fit, but then there are issues with leveling up the "main" or just making progress with one or more additional characters. We're nearing the end of the 2nd arc and will be starting arc 3 within the next year. Here are the factors that arguably need to be balanced:

1. Tier disparity at individual tables
2. Appropriate tables/experiences for new players
3. Encouraging people to play mods with "appropriate" characters
4. Balancing the reward of time invested vs. encouraging wider character options and new players
5. Balancing mods and making them interesting and challenging for all characters playing
6. Increasing difficulties to get a table together for older mods

Tier disparity at tables
From personal experience a full tier difference at the table can sap the fun for the lower tiered character. It becomes a real juggling act to make sure that the higher powered characters are challenged without making the lower powered characters feel completely useless. Even a half tier difference can be a real challenge depending on whether that crosses a tier break.

Appropriate tables/experiences for new players
To keep LoA thriving, new players have to be brought in. Often though they come in singly or in groups of 2 or 3 rather than full tables. This can pose a real challenge for how to make sure they enjoy the experience. This can be especially true if they're brought in by an experienced player whose own character has gained significant experience and may have even played the same mods over (and over) again to help with bringing in other characters. The experienced characters can help get the rules explained and help with the overall experience, but there should be some reason to do so. It's important to make new people feel like they can join in and contribute rather than making them feel like they've missed the boat.

Encouraging players to play mods with appropriate characters
For most mods there are characters that fit better to the story and have more of a vested interest than others. This could be due to race, religion or nationality or something else. It's also not uncommon to experience all the less appropriate or inappropriate characters with a given circumstance because the player wants to ensure they get at least the XP for their "main" and possibly the other rewards (gold, fame, other) as well. Most of us enjoy Arcanis for the story more than any other reason. Playing with appropriate characters would be helpful, but the rules for how replays are handled makes it more difficult.

Balancing the reward of time invested vs. encouraging wider character options and new players
This to an extent touches on previous points. If someone has put in all the hours to get from 1.1 to 2.1 (9,000 XP or roughly 36 mods, 144 hours), there could certainly be a question of whether it's fair to let someone else simply start with a 2.1 character. IF you allow it, what are the balancing factors? Is it being strict with the rewards - no free fame, limited additional monies and no special gear or favors? How do you encourage people who are already playing the game with a main to pick up alts to help better round out tables for lower level characters or just play characters that are a better fit for the mod in question? If someone's played a few mods and invested some time, how do you balance bringing them in line with other players without causing them to lose what they've gained through play (as with the 1.5 cert)?

Balancing mods and making them interesting and challenging for all characters playing
The situations and opponents that challenge a 1.1 character may be mere speed bumps for a 2.5 or 3.1 character. This discrepancy is only going to grow as time goes on. Again, the campaign needs fresh blood to keep it moving along successfully. How do you meet the needs of the 1.x character with that of the high 2.x or even 3.x character?

Increasing difficulties to get a table together for older mods
The longer mods have been out, the harder it is to find other people to play them, especially at an equal tier as the others who still need them. This certainly applies to the Crusade Arc where the 1.5 cert effectively eliminates newer players or at least characters from the options to play.

So, what creative ideas can we come up with and respectfully submit to the campaign staff for consideration?

In the end, the goal is to let players keep having fun and bring in others to support the rich world and story we already enjoy.

So thoughts, suggestions, issues not mentioned?

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: Tier gaps, new players and other challenges with LoA
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 9:23 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:46 pm
Posts: 1353
In case there was any doubt, I really enjoy the game and world and am simply looking for effective ways to bring others in and have a good experience for all.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: Tier gaps, new players and other challenges with LoA
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 10:44 pm 
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A campaign decision that needs to be made as a starting point is:

At what point should adventurers 'retire' from normal play?

If the campaign allows play all the way through to Tier 5.10, the discrepancy will only get worse as time goes on.

Suggestion: (possibly unpopular but the decision needs to be made *now*)
Cap normal play at Tier 3.10 From Tier 4.1 onwards, the PCs come out for 'special' events designed for that level of play. ie: Battle Interactives, and specific Hard Points that affect the world (the upcoming "Night of a thousand eyes" comes to mind). This should make it 5 or so playable events each year.

Due to the reduced play opportunities, a flat 1000xp (so a level per game) to keep a sense of advancement.

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 Post subject: Re: Tier gaps, new players and other challenges with LoA
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 4:27 am 
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Location: Portland OR
I agree with much of what Hat said.

Unfortunately I do not think that there has ever been a solution discovered in a shared world campaign that has proven to be popular across the player base.

In a perfect world, module production would magically triple or quadruple. You wouldn't care as much if you didn't play a mod with the right character because you'd have a new mod coming out next week. Pretty much every week. IMHO limited mods is the biggest problem in the campaign.

As I have gotten older, judged more and written more mods, I increasingly think that the primary reward of 4 hours playing a mod...is the four hours of entertainment with friends. Special favors and rewards are second, and experience and mundane cash is further down in a lowly 3rd to me. So I advocate creating a new "level up cert" probably set around 2.5 in lieu of playing the Crusade or Coming of the Destroyer arcs. I know many (perhaps most) players feel that new people haven't "earned it" but I think it's necessary for new players be close enough to the most experienced players to enjoy sitting down at the same table...they won't get that 4 hours of fun and they won't get any of the "cool stuff." They won't even get all the cash. I wish more people would be content with that.

Another possibility is to create harder levels caps on mods. This is usually the "normal" response from campaigns. Your PC must be in range X-Y to play this module. This would force (which won't be popular) some players to play a mod with a secondary character. It also might prevent some characters (which won't be popular) from playing some mods untill they gained more experience. This is essentially what Southern Skies is talking about...though I don't like the idea of 1000 xp a mod. Another variant would be to limit soft points to Tiers 1.1-3.1 but to leave hard points alone.

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 Post subject: Re: Tier gaps, new players and other challenges with LoA
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 5:17 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:50 am
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Location: Tampa, Florida (temp.)
Paul (Hat) brought up some good points.

val Holryn wrote:
Unfortunately I do not think that there has ever been a solution discovered in a shared world campaign that has proven to be popular across the player base.

In a perfect world, module production would magically triple or quadruple. You wouldn't care as much if you didn't play a mod with the right character because you'd have a new mod coming out next week. Pretty much every week. IMHO limited mods is the biggest problem in the campaign.

As I have gotten older, judged more and written more mods, I increasingly think that the primary reward of 4 hours playing a mod...is the four hours of entertainment with friends. [...]

I agree with all of the points from Eric (val Holryn). First, there's no perfect solution that makes everyone happy.

Living Arcanis eventually had so many mods that level-ranges forced active players to have multiple characters, and it didn't feel like it was an issue to pick appropriate characters for each adventure. Legends of Arcanis has many fewer adventures, which may lead to a chicken-and-egg problem with new players where a lack of players leads to a lack of modules and vice versa.

Hard level caps on mods has potential for these problems, but again we really need more mods.

In the end, though, I'd rather play a useless character with friends than play with strangers or not play at all. When my character can potentially outshine the rest at the table, I try to back off so that everyone can contribute. I've played & GMed several mods recently that involved mystery solving and ethical dilemmas where a character's tier didn't matter very much for the player's involvement; whereas I admit that in a Battle Interactive the tier/rank issue is much bigger.

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 Post subject: Re: Tier gaps, new players and other challenges with LoA
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 6:19 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
Posts: 1037
I heard part of the discussion Sunday morning and really liked a few of the ideas. The two ideas I really like:
  • More leveling certs. There needs to be at least one per story arc (so a new one after Origins). These should ideally put new players within 2 ranks of people that played through all the disallowed modules. Personally, I'd love to see ones for every half tier (eg 1.6 (rather than 1.5), 2.1, 2.6 - probably no need for higher yet).
  • XP-Linked characters. I can't remember who mentioned this. Basically every time you reach a new tier, you create a new 1.1 character that is linked to your "main" character and they advance at the same rate. In other words, when you hit 2.1, you create a new 1.1 character and then when either character hits x.2, they both do (and again at 3.1, 4.1, and 5.1). As far as gold and other rewards, I'd suggest both characters get the gold and the player chooses 1 character to get any other rewards. This would mean everyone would have characters at a range of tiers and there would be no down-side to not playing your "main".

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 Post subject: Re: Tier gaps, new players and other challenges with LoA
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 9:38 am 

Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:45 pm
Posts: 639
One additional point on leveling certs. They make stating BI's easier as there are fewer tiers of mobs that need to be stated out. For example, this years BI should have a 1.5, 2.0, 2.5, 3.0, 3.5. That is a lot of stat blocks. If a 2.5 leveling cert was made available BEFORE the end of this story arc, then there would only be a real need for a 2.5, 3.0, and 3.5, stat blocks. While in a pinch, one stat block of 3.0 would suffice if tables are asked to muster with a mix of high and low tier P.C.'s.

This last option is not only easier on the mod writers, but also helps to solve some of the issues with bringing in new players by encouraging experienced players to play with newer players and PC's.

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There once was a gnome called Oozy,
Who kissed a Yaricite floozy.
But rather than wed,
She drowned him instead,
Now he is a Yaricite toosey!


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 Post subject: Re: Tier gaps, new players and other challenges with LoA
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 9:58 am 

Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:46 pm
Posts: 1353
In terms of leveling certs, I like the idea, but think the implementation needs to be tweaked. As it stands it works well for a brand new character. It doesn't help a seldom played character. What might work better would be something like the following:

1. Create a cert that lists all the mods - soft and hard for a story arc.
2. Allow players to catch up by skipping mods getting a flat 175 XP and 10 Sc per mod. For the mods covered by the 1.5 cert a character would get 4735 XP (still 1.5) and 250 Sc - 50 Sc more, but not a huge amount.
3. Allow players to play the mods they skipped at some point in the future, subtracting the 175 XP and 10 Sc from the rewards they get.

Looking at available mods, taking this approach means that a character who skips the entire 1st and 2nd story arcs starts at 2.2, maybe 2.3 depending on the number of mods released before the official end. If they want to catch up they'll have to put in the same time as everyone else to play through the mods for the rest of the XP.

I didn't include any of the one time events in the calculations as it was less clear to me how those should be handled.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: Tier gaps, new players and other challenges with LoA
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 4:32 pm 
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Speaking as someone who no longer has any power to implement anything, I really, really like the idea of having XP-linked characters. This would allow us to solve a bunch of problems.

If level caps were enforced on modules, writing for a specific Tier, writers could better tailor the adventure to the capabilities of the Heroes.

For those who like having multiple characters, this would (as noted by others) allow them to be played without penalty to your higher level characters; your 'main' character would still be advancing (adventuring off-screen, essentially) while you are focused on a secondary or tertiary.

However, not everyone wants multiple characters. They want to focus on just one. And that could be accommodated as well: When you reach Tier 2.1, such a player could 'create' a Tier 1.1 version of their Hero, identical to the main one, allowing them to play in modules where the level cap is lower. All this does is 'devolve' their character temporarily, bringing their power in line with others while still ultimately advancing them at the higher end.

I would make the case though that while XP and gold could be shared, if you're playing multiple characters then your character that is playing the module should get any additional rewards and consequences; they should not be transferable, particularly non-item rewards. After all, it was your (dark-kin, Coryani Legionnaire, val'Ishi) who helped (Lady Lucia val'Mehan), not your (elorii, Altherian pistoleer, val'Borda), and I can see possible abuses as people could play secondaries to get non-sensible rewards on their 'mains'; for example, an elorii secondary playing a module with an elorii specific reward 'giving' that reward to their Milandisian canton and all of a sudden there's a Milandisian with access to something that no Milandisian would ever have been given.

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 Post subject: Re: Tier gaps, new players and other challenges with LoA
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 4:53 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:45 pm
Posts: 639
I REALLY like Tony's idea, as it would solve a problem that I have. Namely half of my PC's have played mods ABC, while the other half have played XYZ.

I also REALLY like Paul's idea of a continually flexible leveling cert, as it would allow folks that jump in at any point of the story without a major set back.

Two questions for you guys. First, can the ideas be combined in some way? Second, how would you two handle PC deaths in such a system?

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Eric Hughes

There once was a gnome called Oozy,
Who kissed a Yaricite floozy.
But rather than wed,
She drowned him instead,
Now he is a Yaricite toosey!


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