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 Post subject: spirits
PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:18 pm 

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So, the Coryani are based on the Roman's, but also have the PoM laid over them. So I was wondering if the Coryani had the belief of the Lares Familiares, or appeasing the household spirit, that the romans did, and later Europeans did?

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 Post subject: Re: spirits
PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:57 pm 
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toodeep wrote:
So, the Coryani are based on the Roman's, but also have the PoM laid over them. So I was wondering if the Coryani had the belief of the Lares Familiares, or appeasing the household spirit, that the romans did, and later Europeans did?


I've thought of this before too. And I would guess not. The Lares would effectively be primal spirits of some type. As such the practice would never have been started as the PoM would have stopped it at the founding of the First Imperium. At least that's how I see it.

It's possible that at the edge of society something like it might happen.

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 Post subject: Re: spirits
PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 6:05 pm 
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The val'Ishi (as a bloodline power) can summon the spirits of their ancestors.

Summoning an ancestor you just insulted could be a problem for them.

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 Post subject: Re: spirits
PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:01 pm 
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Specifically, I do not believe that anyone outside of the Beltinians would openly worship their ancestors. While Coryan is most similar to Rome, the theocracy of the situation is vastly different than that of the Latins. In our world the Roman religion evolved out of a very common human historical worship of their dead. This was observed in many cultures from the Egyptians, the Hebrews, the Chinese, to the Ojibway. This worship of the ancestors later evolved into many of the various religions that evolved after that point. Arcanis is different in that we already have a very well established religious background, and it is not based on the worship of your ancestors. That isn't to say that the Coryani do not respect their ancestors, but I doubt there is direct worship of ancestor spirits.

Now, the Lares were more than simple ancestor spirits. They were the sprits of hearth and home, and I've read associations with much more known gods like Vesta with the Lares after the Romans began to Hellanize their religious practices (before Greece was conquered their gods had a distinctly different flavour). In the Arcanis cosmology such worship of spirits and deities more than the Twelve would be considered heresy and actively be discouraged. If you were to pray for a baby, you'd worship Saluwe'. If you were to utter prayers for a fire, you'd invoke Nier. If you were to ask about health, you'd invoke Neroth or Beltine as appropriate. The roles of the Lares have equivalents in the Twelve or possibly in some cases by invoking the Valinor of the Gods in some rare occasions I'm sure (though that is likely heretical as well to worship the Valinor over the Gods).

This isn't to say that ancient spirits do not get worshiped. There is that one spirit (the Horned God) who has followers among the Old Coryani population. These creatures would then be subsumed by the Twelve among the official church in much the same way that the Myrantian deities have been given PoM equivalents like Tzitzhet as Sarish.

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 Post subject: Re: spirits
PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 8:50 pm 
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Cody as someone who plays a val'Ishi and a Beltinian I wouldn't say we "worship" them, "honor" might be the more appropriate word. That would be my "in-character" opinion on the matter. :) Worship as you say is reserved for the gods of the Pantheon (and perhaps to a lesser extent the Valinor who serve them).

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 Post subject: Re: spirits
PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 9:10 pm 
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Pardon my slip of the tongue, Idid not mean to imply heretical worship. That said, we do know now that the Khitani Beltinians do call upon their ancestors more than those of Coryan. The Coryani church is more focused--as I recall--in having the spritis reach their rest, while the Khitani call them forth for advice and veneration.

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 Post subject: Re: spirits
PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 9:18 pm 
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Out of curiosity which mod do we learn that from (the Khitani Beltinian practice that is). No spoilers as I may have not played it, the title would suffice.

And I would never impugn a val'Virdan's (and a Holy Judge at that) commitment to orthodox religious practices. :) Words are such tricky things.

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 Post subject: Re: spirits
PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:20 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
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val Holryn wrote:
I've thought of this before too. And I would guess not. The Lares would effectively be primal spirits of some type. As such the practice would never have been started as the PoM would have stopped it at the founding of the First Imperium. At least that's how I see it.

It's possible that at the edge of society something like it might happen.


I was thinking about how a good catholic irishman could still leave out a bowl of milk to appease the spirits. I know it might not be a part of the church teachings, but still something done, and considered minor enough to fly under the radar, or be accepted in practice even if not propagated by the Church. Or even as someone else has mentioned co-opted like the horned king has been by the Church (he was originally pagan, but I think officially he now falls somehow under an aspect/servant of Saluwe.)

It seems like the kind of thing that should technically not exist, but in for practical purposes should.

The other thing would be if it has been known to exist even if it is frowned upon by the Church. Is there the idea in the Coryani mind of something akin to Lares, Mares, or Genius's? I stayed away from mentioning Mares, rather than Lares, because Mares have to do with the afterlife, and it seems that something of a person's soul sticking around afterward is a bad thing. Though it is interesting that some Beltinian's can do exactly that.

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 Post subject: Re: spirits
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:16 am 
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toodeep wrote:
I was thinking about how a good catholic irishman could still leave out a bowl of milk to appease the spirits. I know it might not be a part of the church teachings, but still something done, and considered minor enough to fly under the radar, or be accepted in practice even if not propagated by the Church. Or even as someone else has mentioned co-opted like the horned king has been by the Church (he was originally pagan, but I think officially he now falls somehow under an aspect/servant of Saluwe.)

It seems like the kind of thing that should technically not exist, but in for practical purposes should.

The other thing would be if it has been known to exist even if it is frowned upon by the Church. Is there the idea in the Coryani mind of something akin to Lares, Mares, or Genius's? I stayed away from mentioning Mares, rather than Lares, because Mares have to do with the afterlife, and it seems that something of a person's soul sticking around afterward is a bad thing. Though it is interesting that some Beltinian's can do exactly that.


So again, I think the answer depends on where you are. In the Western Lands where there is a fault line between primal and PoM practitioners? (or perhaps in Sicaris or Censure) Absolutely you could find something like your good Irishman. I bet there are lots of PoM Undir in and around Eppion who have a number of "superstitions" regarding spirits. But generally speaking I don't think you find anything like this in mainstream Coryani households.

I am unfamiliar with the idea of the Mares. But I personally equate the Roman idea of Genius with the Arcanis ideas of the Intellect or Soul. For anyone unfamiliar the Romans use the idea of Genius less as someone who really excels in a given field, than as the part of your soul or mind that that has a real "knack" for something. In the Roman world, every has a genius at something.

The official teachings of the MC and its derivatives is that a person is made up of 3 elements. A Body, a Soul, and an Intellect. Neroth has dominion over the Body (and imperfect dominion over the Intellect...see also Altheres and Sarish) and Beltine over the Soul. Their temples would have the right to teach the "dogma" of their respective elements.

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. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
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 Post subject: Re: spirits
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:30 am 
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Nierite wrote:
Specifically, I do not believe that anyone outside of the Beltinians would openly worship [honor] their ancestors.

The Altherians and val'Abebi also seem to have a strong connection to their ancestors. The bloodline talent Wisdom of the Ages [ARPG, p.213] directly mentions ancestors, and the old bloodline power The Lessons of Master Craftsmen [PGtA, p.274] implies a connection to ancestors to a lesser extent. See also the val'Abebi psionic spells Guidance of Thy Elders [ARPG, p.394] and Into the Minds of Many [ARPG, p.400].

Given the way that we players know that Altherians hide from outsiders that they believe can still contact Althares Himself, I suspect that they also would keep any honoring or reverence of ancestors as a private matter.

The Mother Church does recognize saints, though (like the real-world Catholic Church) saints are not worshiped but venerated. The veneration of specific saints is, I realize, much different than honoring one's personal ancestors.

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