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 Post subject: Judiciaries of Onara
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 2:40 pm 
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A player asked me a question today which got me thinking. How do the various legal systems work across Onara? It has been written before that Nierites are occasionally brought in to act as judges for various disputes, but how widespread is this?

Almeric
I would think that the execution of law here would be very much dependent on where you are at the time. As it is fractured by a large number of warlords, I would think that the laws of the land would be inconsistent and unequally applied. You are probably more likely to be brought before a lord of one sort or another than a dedicated/educated judge.

Altheria
Of any nation, Altheria is the one I would most expect to possess an independent judiciary. As a republic would the laws of Altheria be secular, or given the prominence of religion, would the judiciary be part of (or overseen by) the church?

Blessed Lands
Seeing as the First City is a bit of a hodge-podge, I would expect that the rules would differ based on where you are, exactly. I might remember this wrong, but I do remember one of the modules addressing a set of laws which are enforced by the Tomal Khan (mostly to do with exploration and taxation, I believe).

Canceri
I think it has been fairly well established that law in Canceri is administered by the church. How frequently would Nierites be called upon, however? If there were a serious legal matter in Ventaka, for instance, would the Nerothians deal with it in-house, or would they bring in an external judge? I'm guessing that it would be the former.

Coryan
Of all the nations, I would imagine that the Coryani would be the most likely to bring in experts in law. Otherwise, I would expect the nobility to fill that role.

Dwarven
Off the top of my head I don't recall any materials dealing with law in Dwarven society. I would expect that it would differ from enclave to enclave, however.

Elorii
As above, I don't really think it has been explored. With that said, given the age of the Eloran empire and personal lifespans, I would think the Elorii would have good potential for a fully developed legal system. Would it be secular though?

Hinterlands
Obviously in the rural areas law would be defined and administered by whatever local tribe is there. Mil Takara would follow Milandir, what about Sicaris, Censure and Jappa? Would the local governments set their own laws? I wouldn't be surprised if Censure had one of the more rigorous legal systems, as crime is bad for commerce. Erduk, similarly, would likely have well defined and enforced laws.

Khitan
We don't know much about Khitan, but it seems loosely modeled on Chinese society. I would guess that the military would have a large role in law, but this is a very uneducated guess.

League of Princes
We know very little about the Kio (which will hopefully change soon), but with the number of Undir slaves out there, I'm skeptical that law and order is a huge priority...if anything, I would think that the law would treat the Kio as being or greater significance than other races.

Milandir
I would guess that the nobility of Milandir would administer justice in Milandir. In Mil Takara, would it be the Knight-Commander who would preside over trials?

Pirate Isles
Law? What law?

Ssethregore
Not really relevant to the campaign at large (seeing as PCs are unlikely to ever be involved in a Ssethregoran trial), but I would think that the Ssanu would be in charge of law, and that it would heavily favour the Ssanu. The society seems to eschew the 'might is right' philosophy, so I doubt you would ever see legal proceedings, as such.

Unsealed Lands
Haina would likely be very similar to Khitan, with the military having a very strong influence. Bastion is an interesting one. The player's guide states that the citizens of Bastion are very law abiding, and that the city has very strict laws. I would think the priesthood would be involved here.

Ymandragore
Ymandragore probably has very strict law as well, although 'fair' probably isn't a part of it. I'm not aware of any information out there, however, on how law is administered or enforced.

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aka Raseri 'Crash' val'Emman - Master of the Incandescent Flame (Martial 3.7)
aka Leif - Skohir Warped One (Martial 2.6)
aka Rurik - Nol Dappan War Priest (Divine 2.3)
aka Karthik - Tultipetan Stonemason (Expert 1.4)


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 Post subject: Re: Judiciaries of Onara
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 4:16 pm 
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Speaking only for myself, I think that in much of the former lands of the Coryani Empire there is still a lot of. . . mistrust of the Nierite priesthood. Remember that for some 700 years the worship of Nier was outlawed, leading to other priesthoods (or secular powers) taking over their responsibilities in the society. A good example of this how in the early days of the Empire there was a huge number of Nierite Inquisitors, but now Sarish (in his Oath/Law aspect) and Illiir (in his Truth aspect) took over when the worship of Nier fell out of favour. It has been less than a century since the Nierites have come back, and I doubt the Iliirites, Sarishans, or secular bureaucracy would be willing to give up their historical power in the Empire or its splinter states.

To that end, outside of Canceri I figure almost all of the rule of law is at the sufference of the local Lords. Coryan and the Coryani parts of Almeric likely use elected magistrates (probably taught by Nierite, Illiirite, or Sarishan priests) as judges, with a much heavier leaning towards Patricians over Plebians. In Milandir and Milandisian Almeric it is likely more down to the local feudal lord as part of their Pact of Oaths (the higher Lord protecting the rights of their lower folks). The Hinterlands the highest judges are probably the Tribal Elders and the Nawals. The Western Lands likely have a variation of Coryan's system for the Kio, with noble Kio families replacing the Patricians, and with a heavier influence on Duelling to solve cases. Undir are probably closer to the Hinterlands with tribal or municipal elders.

Dwarves and Elorii are not well established, but likely the former would differ to the noble house members as arbiters, and the later would hold courts possibly including one of each subrace. Among the ss'ressen they have a Matriarchy, so the female priest-class would be THE law.

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Haakon Marcus val'Virdan, Divine Holy Judge of Nier
Ruma val'Vasik, Martial Crusader and Master of the Spear
Jorma Osterman, Arcane Coryani Battlemage


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 Post subject: Re: Judiciaries of Onara
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 6:41 pm 

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I would also note that "Purity, Fraternity, Justice" dealt with the courts a little bit. It's not really clear who was running the courts in that instance, but it was clear that the court system, probably in most regions, is largely run by Val, rather than normal humans. For some, that makes a difference.

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 Post subject: Re: Judiciaries of Onara
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 8:10 pm 
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Location: Portland OR
In the wilds of Arcanis your legal options are probably "self help" in nature. Good luck. In civilization I am pretty sure in most places there are competing forums so the answer is "complicated." Usually you have to deal with different secular and religious laws.

In the old campaign there was a module in Coryan (i forget the name) where a Nierite is called in
to judge the alleged traitorous activites of a Beltinian woman who has provided healing to a member of the rebellion. In addition to doing the investigation the PCs get to act as advocates for either side of the case. One of the issues is whether secular or religious duties and laws take precedence in this case. I remember the mod fairly well because it was the first time Jaeger, my rebel leaning Paladin of Hurrian, sat down with players running LLT characters. :P I vaguely retain a sense that the Coryani call in the Holy Judges either when no one much wants to touch a sensitive case (that doesn't have a potential big political upside) or when there is an issue between secular and religious law. Or when conditions create a real demand for someone seen as impartial. I think Cody's assertion that Nierites still are treated warily in Coryan might be true. But I think the Holy Judges are a special exception.

Certainly the Coryani also have local/regional and Imperial (secular) courts. (And an Inquisition to handle religious matters). I would think the general title of a secular judge would have been something like Magistratus. In the ancient Republic of Rome the title of most powerful judges would have been Praetor, which carried limited "Imperium" (executive authority). In times of crisis they would have raised and led military forces too in the absence of the Consuls or Proconsuls (former Consuls serving a term as governors of territories). Coryan might (probably?) have Imperial Praetors who serve in Illionia and beyond in the interests of the Emperor and Senate (and possibly sometimes come into conflict with the Governors).

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. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Judiciaries of Onara
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 8:22 pm 
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You class will also impact access to law.

If you're poor, a magistrate (appointed by the national government, local lord or is some cases the village headman) would deal with most cases. Murder would probably be bumped up to a val or higher authority.

If you're rich... it could be heard anywhere up to the king/emperor etc.

As noted above, the Roman system had elected/appointed magistrates (of various levels) to deal with anyone not of the noble classes. The nobles had their cases heard by a jury of their peers.
Indirectly, that is one reason the nobles looted countries while in positions of power; many were sued upon their return to Rome to strip that wealth from them and reduce their power and chances for election to higher office (Cicero wrote of several of the cases he undertook on moral grounds; they all did it for the money, as the lawyer got a percentage).

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 Post subject: Re: Judiciaries of Onara
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 8:38 pm 
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In Milandir I again agree with Cody: "everyday" law is generally handled by the nobles. The nobles of Milandir can and presumably do administer justice on their lands. This works out better than it did in the real world both because of the importance of Milandesian Chivalry and the fact that the farmers are also all armed Cantons who the nobles all need to rely on just about every generation to repel some invader or another. In more urban areas things might get more complicated. Members of the Guilds and other nobles have additional legal rights and probably (I would guess) can only be effectively tried by Ducal (or Crown) courts in the major cities. There is no clerical Inquisition. All this is for humans. The Ssressens in the Sulphur Marsh are run under the Theocracy/Gynocracy of the Matriarch (who also holds high noble rank as a Marchioness...only one step bellow a Duchess).

In Altheria ... I have no idea. I assume there are local courts either under a civic leader (mayor?) or an autonomous source to handle local matters. And maybe an appeals process to a national court over it. Nominally the Inquisition does exert authority there. We haven't seen in game yet how any of that would work. I believe Semar is effectively run by the Shinning Patrol so the justice there would be Military.

In the wilds of the Hinterlands you can appeal to the local Nawhals (tribal leaders). But they probably have little control of someone who is out of their sight. On the coast you can maybe call on the Pearl Maidens for help.Same deal. the cities of Sicaris have their own civil authorities. Sicaris should be based on a Coryani model with Magistrates. Censure is more complicated since there are 6 major houses and most of them control gangs that help enforce their will in the parts of the city that they control. Censure also has the Synarch who is (nominally) in charge of the Lantern Men.

Almeric is anarchy punctuated with tiny dictator/warlords...I mean Princes.

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Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Judiciaries of Onara
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:09 pm 
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One last thing I would note is that the hard division between the courts and the government is something we take for granted in the Western World that probably wouldn't exists in most places in Arcanis. I'm rereading one of the SPQR books which has reminded me that the Senators of the Roman Republic stuck their nose into a lot things we'd leave to the judiciary (more or less) whenever they were sufficiently interested (there were some legal and cultural restrictions).

If what you're doing touches upon the rich and powerful then there could be a political response in lieu of a judicial response with much the same effect.

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Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Judiciaries of Onara
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 12:15 am 
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Good points, everyone. Thanks :)

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aka Raseri 'Crash' val'Emman - Master of the Incandescent Flame (Martial 3.7)
aka Leif - Skohir Warped One (Martial 2.6)
aka Rurik - Nol Dappan War Priest (Divine 2.3)
aka Karthik - Tultipetan Stonemason (Expert 1.4)


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