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What nations feel what about slavery?
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Author:  wilcoxon [ Sat Sep 26, 2015 9:27 pm ]
Post subject:  What nations feel what about slavery?
I wasn't sure which forum to put this in as its not really a rule and not really a campaign question...

What do different nations think of slavery? Here's my best guesses from what I remember reading (either specifics or just my feel for the nation). I'm not sure on a lot of them. I'm actually most interested in Almeric - I have no idea on their attitude since they are basically made up from Coryan (where slavery is legal) and Milandir (where slavery is illegal).

Abessios - legal?
Almeric - ???
Altheria - illegal?
Canceri - legal
Coryan - legal
Dwarven - illegal?
Elorii - illegal?
Hinterlands - legal?
League of Princes - illegal?
Milandir - illegal
Pirate Isles - legal
Unsealed Lands - illegal?
Ymandragore - legal (clearly for casters - I'm less sure about non-casters)
Author:  PCIHenry [ Sat Sep 26, 2015 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What nations feel what about slavery?
Hello Steve,

Good question.

Almeric did not last long enough as a cohesive and unified nation to develop a culture yet. As such, it's a mixed bag and truly depends on which city/town/holding you're talking about.

So bottom line: Slavery is condoned in certain places and not in others.

As for some of some of the other notations you made, no one is quite sure about the Elorii nations, but illegal is a good educated guess.

Hinterlands, Fiendish Expanse (formerly the (Un)Sealed Lands) and the League of Princes/Western Lands are much like Almeric; it depends on what city/region you're referring to.
Author:  Nierite [ Sat Sep 26, 2015 11:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What nations feel what about slavery?
The Dwarves DO have slaves, such as the Cyclopses and at least some Arena fighters in Nol Dappa. It is probably a case by case basis though.

I have never seen anything saying Altherians had slaves, but unlike Milandir it hasn't been said they don't so they probably practice at least limited slavery (ie: prison labour camps).
Author:  val Holryn [ Sun Sep 27, 2015 8:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What nations feel what about slavery?
Nierite wrote:
The Dwarves DO have slaves, such as the Cyclopses and at least some Arena fighters in Nol Dappa. It is probably a case by case basis though.

I have never seen anything saying Altherians had slaves, but unlike Milandir it hasn't been said they don't so they probably practice at least limited slavery (ie: prison labour camps).


Altheria is a Republic. Some citizens are certainly more privileged than others, but more than anywhere else in the world (even Milandir) Altherians believe in the idea that people are essentially equal and rise and fall based on their talents. Not on the status of their genealogy. That is inconsistent with slavery. As is the idea that they all are the chosen people of Altheris. While I don't doubt they have prisons (some as ugly as anywhere else) I strongly disagree with the statement that it hasn't been established that they don't practice slavery.

The old Codex talks about their philosophical belief in equality of station. And in flavor text in the old Forged in Magic it looks like it extends beyond Altherians. In the old campaign a frickin Ogre named Radjuborn came out of nowhere looking to trade his fighting skills for a secure life...and the Altherians ultimately accepted him as a valued comrade in the Shining Patrol.

I'd be shocked to learn I've gotten that wrong over the years. I certainly play Tukufu as quietly anti slavery.
Author:  Nierite [ Sun Sep 27, 2015 9:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What nations feel what about slavery?
val Holryn wrote:
Nierite wrote:
The Dwarves DO have slaves, such as the Cyclopses and at least some Arena fighters in Nol Dappa. It is probably a case by case basis though.

I have never seen anything saying Altherians had slaves, but unlike Milandir it hasn't been said they don't so they probably practice at least limited slavery (ie: prison labour camps).


Altheria is a Republic. Some citizens are certainly more privileged than others, but more than anywhere else in the world (even Milandir) Altherians believe in the idea that people are essentially equal and rise and fall based on their talents. Not on the status of their genealogy. That is inconsistent with slavery. As is the idea that they all are the chosen people of Altheris. While I don't doubt they have prisons (some as ugly as anywhere else) I strongly disagree with the statement that it hasn't been established that they don't practice slavery.

The old Codex talks about their philosophical belief in equality of station. And in flavor text in the old Forged in Magic it looks like it extends beyond Altherians. In the old campaign a frickin Ogre named Radjuborn came out of nowhere looking to trade his fighting skills for a secure life...and the Altherians ultimately accepted him as a valued comrade in the Shining Patrol.

I'd be shocked to learn I've gotten that wrong over the years. I certainly play Tukufu as quietly anti slavery.


The United States of America was a Republic between 1776 and 1861 (still is, but but these dates are important for context). It was founded on principles of equality between men, rejecting many of the believed corrupt institutions of Europe. However, for 85 years during this republic a whole race of people were enslaved despite all these noble ideals about equality of mankind.

Also remember, slavery is not simply chattel slavery. Slavery takes numerous forms including forced labour (ie: prison camps/work camps), debt slavery (different and more specific than chattel slavery), and sexual slavery. In terms of Altheria being 'equal', we know that Priests of Althares and Men specifically have far more rights than common citizens and women in general. We know they practice polygamy with multiple wives, and only recently has there been a move to allow a woman (who renounced her womanhood to gain political power) for women to have multiple husbands.
Author:  PCIHenry [ Sun Sep 27, 2015 9:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What nations feel what about slavery?
Hello,

You're correct, Eric - Slavery, as an institution, is not practiced in the Altherian Republic.

They do have indentured servants, where (usually) younger people of poorer families (or like the Ogre/Ibon you mentioned) paid for their housing, food and training/apprenticeship for a set number of years.

Cody is correct that the Altherians have prisons, and nasty ones at that, and use prisoners for labor, but they are not slaves, per se.
Author:  val Holryn [ Sun Sep 27, 2015 9:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What nations feel what about slavery?
To go back to the earlier questions on locations:

Abessios: absolutely legal. And watch out, slaves make great sacrifices to Tzizihet.

Dwarves: no sign that the Dwarves ever enslave members of their society or the "Emtazi" ... hard to break the curse if you break that rule. OTOH we have seen the Tultipetans enslave fire giants, the Nol Dappans enslave Cyclopses and at least in their old home, the Tir Betoqi enslaved stone giants. So if you're not "the right kind of people" perhaps you could be in trouble. Apparently Giant kind are fair game.

Hinterlands...mostly legal. But not in lands directly controlled by Milandir. You won't find a slave Market in Mil Takara but would in Censure or Sicarus.

Unsealed Lands: Haina and especially Giant Home are essentially organized to keep their armies mobilized. No slavery there (but military justice is potentially swift and harsh). If you have the bad luck to be born under territory controlled by the fiends ....

Ymandragore is a very interesting question for non casters. I would generally guess no. Despite the fact that Ymandragore is synonymous with villainy in the campaign my best guess is that the normal people who live there making candles, craft goods or whatever may enjoy the highest standard of living in the known world. That's inconsistent with an economic need for slave labor.
Author:  PCIHenry [ Sun Sep 27, 2015 9:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What nations feel what about slavery?
Nierite wrote:
The Dwarves DO have slaves, such as the Cyclopses and at least some Arena fighters in Nol Dappa. It is probably a case by case basis though.


Correct.

The dwarven cultural history is based off the time when they were still Celestial Giants and we know that group enslaved various peoples, such as the giants, cyclopes and eventually humans.

Some dwarven nations have evolved culturally and thrown that institution into the dust bin of history, while in others - notably the Nol Dappans - the institution still lingers.
Author:  wilcoxon [ Sun Nov 01, 2015 11:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What nations feel what about slavery?
What about ...?

* Bastion - I'm guessing not
* Blessed Lands - I'm guessing slavery is found there
* Ssethregore - created races yes but do they enslave others? I'm guessing yes but I'm not sure.
Author:  Nierite [ Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What nations feel what about slavery?
Bastion - Not any more ;) Before that, I doubt it since Xabal liberated other slaves. That said, arguably they were all slaves to Xabal.

Blessed Lands - There is LOTS of evidence of slavery in the First City. No word yet if the Andyar practice it, but based on historical tribal societies in both Afro-Eurasia and the Americas in our world, they probably practice at least some forms of slavery (Debt Slavery, Prisoners of War, etc).

Ssethregore - There is a strict racial-based hierarchy, with all below the Ss'ressen (and arguably the Salamankas/Troglodytes) being slaves. Even the Ss'ressen could be viewed as a form of slaves, but really it is a VERY strict racial-based class system. All mammals (humans and elorii) are definitely slaves if they are in the empire and alive. Well, slaves or cattle.
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