This is a great point. We have several different viewpoints on this event and they aren't on all four corners with each other. We don't know who Umor is (though some have theories). And we aren't sure what Umor wanted from the PoM. I think two big possibilities exist:

(1) If Umor is Kasegore (one theory) then he sees the coming silence and "the chaos" of the human gods and he goes to them and says something like, "You guys are all over the place bickering and fighting amongst yourselves. The Silence is coming and its going to eat you & everything else. But if you unite under me (or give me your power) then I'll go fight it. Your children will always be subservient to my children but at least they'll live." To which the human gods flip out and have a big argument because while they might worry about the (at this point alleged) Silence they aren't bowing down to a foreign god much less giving up their essence. Maybe some of the human gods wonder if this is an opportunity to gain in stature amonst themselves. While this is going on Umor launches a surprise attack and eats the gentlest and absorbs some of the PoMs power, but is ultimately defeated when the PoM unites in a common all out effort. Plus or minus Anshar/Yig's intervention.

The big unexplained problem with this scenario is the later meeting with Belisarda. Why doesn't she recognize Umor as Kas? Also why is it Umor seems so crazy when he appears. I mean if Umor's logical when interacting with the PoM then it doesn't make sense that he goes mad somewhere along the way. There is also the crazy future scene where the Dark Moon explodes as part of the end times. If its Kas that is imprisoned in there then why does entropy care?i

(2) If Umor is a Poobah of the Silence these problems are avoided. He/She/It shows up and delivers a message to the PoM that is calculated to make them argue heatedly with each other. In that moment of division Umor strikes and absorbs some of their power. But the alpha strike fails and the PoM unite to fight off Umor and imprison it, probably in the Dark Moon.

There are problems with this scenario too. Again with the meeting with Belisarda. Why doesn't Umor eat the Elemental Lords? Or Belisarda? Is he too weak? He has Belisarda alone ... he has the chance. And in fact this is what the official position of the Mother Church insists is what happened to Belisarda. She dies and was eaten. But I don't think many players believe that's true...that looks to me like an institutionalized lie. Further in the old mod Whispers in the Dark someone says "Umor" to the PCs before their head explodes spraying the PCs with "psychic worms" ... turns out the worms try to help the PCs in the mod against entropic threats.

At present neither of the two big theories is satisfactory to me.

There may also be a third variation or theory that emerges as we learn more about Aii or other Gods of the West.

I do believe that one of the big themes of the world of Arcanis is the "fragmentation" of cultural and power blocks in the world. There are some existential threats out there in the Arcanis Universe, but there is no consensus among "the good guys" on how to deal with them. Or who should lead. If it is a theme and not a coincidence that keeps cropping up then it should be true at the cosmic level of the game as well. If so then I support an interpretation that is more nuanced than just that Umor is an agent/leader of the Silence.

That is what it looks like. Which is bad for the "Umor is not Silence-y" camp. Still its not impossible that the Silence sent a power wave through the moon to kill the prisoner inside resulting in the Moons destruction. Or that the explosion was triggered by the energies released when the prisoner inside was killed.

In respect to the question "Did Umor consume Belesarda". We know that the Other consumed the "gentlest of the Gods" and that the POM consumed the 4 elemental Elorii gods.

In respect to the Gentlest, her name is lost to history and (as far as we know ) and there are no clerics or priest to her, suggesting she is unable to grant divine blessings (as she is consumed)

This follows with the Elorii gods. They have been consumed and so are unable to grant their favor to their followers and that power comes from Belesarda.

Which in turns suggest that the goddess is alive and kicking as she still grants blessings, where all the known consumed gods and goddess don't.

The nexct big question is...
If she is with Umor like suggested, did she go willingly or as a prisoner?

An alternative is that until she went missing the Elorii gods were reluctant to join the POM against Umor, so was it really the Other that was responsible for her disappearance or was it POM forcing the Elorii's hand?

So goes the story of the Mother Church and the tradition of mankind. This may not be 100% true, however, as we do not have a 3rd party reference on the 'gentlest' goddess mention.



Define divine blessing. If you are referring to 'granting spells', then I am sorry but your thinking is still in D&D. Henry has stated that while Theurgy spells are empowered by faith, they are not granted directly from the gods. They seem to be kind of 'spell modules': premade spells which are empowered by a person's faith as opposed to the more free-form types of magic of the Arcane traditions. As such, you could in the modern Arcanis universe have a Priest of Keleos who REALLY believes that he is still alive cast a Theurgy spell of Keleos just as well as a Priest of Larissa could cast a Theurgy spell of Larissa. The problem is that everyone believes Keleos to be absorbed and consumed, meaning having faith in Him is difficult, thereby depowering his spells.



That is a question we cannot answer until we hear what the priests of 'another' god like Aii or Kassagore (if he starts talking again) weigh in on the battle. The fact we haven't heard anything from the Ssethric side implies they had no direct part in this (even Yig had abandoned them for over 1000 years by that point), and we have only recently even heard of Aii. I'm wondering if we'll hear more about this when we learn more about the Three Sisters--one of whom is Belisarda!--in the Blessed Lands book or (more likely) in the long-dreamed about Updated, Expanded Codex Arcanis (Mk. 3?) or in an adventure (probably after the end of the Coming of the Destroyer story).

I believe that by the time the pantheon of man arrived on the shores of Onara, that Kassegore and Yig had already returned to their people. Their followers just weren't in power anymore. This is, of course, supported by the intervention of Yig in the battle. So Kassegore could have been involved, or a spectator.

I don't believe that Kassegore is Umor, primarily because of the fortelling attributed to him, saying "He watched as the Dark One made pacts with the enemies of his creations and the breaking of the world." That fits Umor, and thus seems to indicate that Umor is not Kassegore. But, a new thought occurred to me as I wrote that, that I have always thought that the "enemies of his creations" meant the silence, since that is what most of the prophecy seemed to talking about, but now I realized that the "enemies of his creations" may mean the Elorii - which Umor also had dealing.

Pointing to some relationship to Kassegore however, is some indication in "For the Lesser Gods" that Umor may have been described as the "Celestial Dragon" before being (mostly) bound away. Celestial Dragon would seem to indicate a possible connection with Kassegore.

I've also always wondered about his relationship to the PoM before he fought them. Was he a part of the PoM at one time? Was there a gentlest one? I've looked at the PoM and wondered what areas of influence are missing from their porfolios that may have at one time been Umor's or the "Gentlest's" areas of influence. The only one I come up with easily is air - every indication is that Hurrian did not have the air domain before absorbing it from the Elorii lord. Yarris had water, Nier probably already had fire, and Saluwe earth (though it is possible one didn't) so who had air? My guess is that Umor had the air portfolio, since I read once that the author of the Kio intended that they were servants of Umor (though we have apparently never learned if this was brought into the actual story of the Kio in the campaign).

As for Belisarda - I found the idea that she somehow got bound along with Umor and interesting one, though terrifying. Terrifying because we know she still can grant spells and have a hand in the world, and if she is bound with Umor it means Umor could have just as much influence, which is scary. I've always wondered if there is a Umor-Belisarda child out there. Or if what it was that Umor needed was a servant race of his own that Belisarda helped to ensoul (the kio?)

I'm not sure that we're at the right starting point for the discussion on Umor as the origins of the PoM I think play into this as well. Here's what I recall as background for my thinking. Please help correct any errors.

1. Umor and followers arrived on the shores of Onara eventually pursued by the PoM.
2. The followers of Umor appeared to also be human
3. We know that there were other humans living here at the time of the PoM's arrival - Pengik for example.
4. It's possible that this other line may or may not be Umor's followers
5. The PoM has traveled back in time in order to ensure their childrens' survival.
6. Creation is assigned to Kassegore and I think Umor, but not to the PoM.

Also from somewhere though not sure if it's an IC writing or simply speculation in past threads are the questions of whether the PoM were mortals that were elevated to their divinity.

Theories of time travel always make my head hurt in terms of what happens and how it all works. That said, here's a possible line of thought.

Theory
Umor was the original god of humanity and it's creator. At some point in the history those who became the gods found the means of securing their divinity and ascended, challenging Umor for control of their common people. This led to the chase from their point of origin to Onara. Perhaps the disagreement originated from the PoMs understanding of their dark future and their willingness to go back in time to do something about it that Umor opposed.

I think to determine the nature of Umor, it needs to be predicated on at least some sort of origin for humans and the PoM before you can put Umor in context.

My other theory regarding the origins of the PoM is that it's a self creating future. The PoM came to the past to ensure their own creation. They likely brought with them their valinor and possibly their human followers. Alternatively the human followers were created in the past.

Humans and Valinor from the future spawn the Val bloodlines.
The Vals in the future discover ways to ascend to being Valinor
The Valinor in the future discover ways to ascend to being gods - specifically the PoM which kicks off the process in the past.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

I had never heard that, though it would fill a gap in our creation story. Is there any source for the idea that Umor was a creator? I was kinda liking my idea that the reason why he needed Belisarda was so that she could create a servitor race for him - since we know she can create life.



I like the idea of the PoM being men made into gods, its something I've thought was likely for awhile now. It is supported by the fact that the Sorcerer King is hanging around in our dimension looking for the "Birthing place of the Gods". That being present on this plane is very interesting when you are talking about people ascending - just what the sorcerer king wants to do.

I also like the idea that he is a god of man's displaced by the PoM. I've always assumed he was part of the PoM, since the war of the gods told from mankind's perspective mentions him having corrupt valinor. But I find the argument that the Elorii side of the story makes no reference to him having Valinor very interesting. I seem to remember an oblique reference by Henry at one point indicating that the Silence might be something of a "self inflicted wound" in some manner, though I readily admit I may be getting it entirely wrong. If mankind drove one of their own gods to reaching for power from Entropy by trying to displace him, that would explain that reference.

Near as I can tell, only Belisarda and Yig have been credited at creating life, and only Belisarda and Kassagore have been credited with creating souls. I have over the years looked through almost all Arcanis published material and have found no reference to Umor/The Other being the creator of anything, only the destroyer of things. That said, if he WAS the creator of the human race, the PoM has a vested interest in NOT advertising that point considering how demonized he is in their mythology.

Which in turn raises an interesting question - IF those are the only 3 in some combination that create life and souls, where do all of the other races and being come from? What is the point of origin of say the Singarthan trolls, humans, dwaves, etc. not to mention the infernals, celestials, etc.?

Is it plausible that only Kassagore, Yig and Belisarda are the creators?

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

The Ssanu biomancers of the ancient Yahssremoran Empire and (to a lesser extent) the later Ssethregoran Empire are credited with changing many species to make others. They didn't supposedly create any life from scratch but were able to manipulate many species. If one Elder Race could do that, maybe others could, too. Taken to extreme, perhaps many or most mortal species originate from one or a few base species. Infernals, Celestials, and Elementals have a different "feel" to them (admittedly biased from d20 viewpoint) and I suspect have a different origin.