Oh, good point about their divisions in the Mythic age. That would argue for separate planes. I still would dearly love to learn more about the mythic age.

Also made me wonder about Anshar and Ssethric afterlife. Since Kassegore devours and reprocesses all their souls (very similar to the cauldron) there doesn't seem to be any outsider/extraplanar connection for the Ssethrics, right? That does make is extra interesting that the Ssethric usurper god we learned about in this years BI had outsider servants, doesn't it? And since Anshar is a newer addition to the pantheon, and doesn't have any Valinor of her own, does she now have a paradise? Or do her followers get "reprocessed" like her original followers?

We know that who you worship controls where your soul goes, right? Or at least it can. That's why losing your chosen to other gods is so bad. When the Varn convinced Ssethrics to start worshipping them, they started getting the souls, rather than them returning to Kassegor. Heck, we even know of one case of an Elorii Spirit making it into the human paradise. So there is some compatibility/exchangeability between races. Now we need a human suicidal enough to try to enter the Elorii recycling system. I guess it would be interesting to know, do we have any idea what happens to a human's soul that worships Belisarda? Does she have a tiny afterlife set up for them, since as far as we know they don't join the Elorii system?

As far as I know, that is correct. We've never seen any mention of "celestials" serving Kasegore and Yig. Never the less there are clearly gigantic holes in our knowledge of Ssethric Lore (even among the Black Talons, Abessians and the Altherians) because this is the first time in the campaign we've even heard about other Ssethric deities besides Kassegore & Yig. I am reluctant to place boundaries on what kinds of creatures do or do not serve Wantir.



Great Question. Its possible Anshar "chose" very very few to join her in her paradise. Or she may have her own celestial real estate somewhere and taking in some boarders in the form of her new favorite souls was no big deal. Regardless Yig does not eat and regurgitate souls (to our knowledge) so the human reprocessing center should still be the Cauldron



Its not entirely clear to me. Yes the Varn are poaching souls. How much of that works because of their being worshiped vs. how much of it works because the soul bridge acts like a trap is opaque to me. I think a lot of the Ssethric creatures get caught up that are not particularly devout in any way shape or form. Maybe lip service is enough to keep you in any given "soul" paradigm. But on the other hand I am pretty sure that if you're a human or a kio, and you live in the foreign quarter of Seremas, and you worship Belisarda, you don't go into the Ourumar. Though we know know other people worship Belisarda as part of a triad of goddesses. What happens to their souls is a great mystery. Similiarly, if you are an elorii and you decide you want to follow the Fire Dragon (Kassegore) ...well... it seems like most elorii are ready to recycle your soul right now based on the understanding that the soul goes back to Ourumar and you get "cleaned up" for your next life.

Just a reminder to the discussion, it IS entirely possible to trap souls before they go to the Cauldron/Ouromar/Kassagore's Fiery Maw and spirit anus. It was found in the adventure in the 3.5 campaign where a group identified as being aligned with The Silence had their own Ouromar which short-circuited the Elorii reincarnation cycle so the souls of the Berokene inhabitants of Raven'Tindal were not reborn elsewhere among the Elorii, or other (non-Berokenes) were born in that community. There was also a plot point which I don't think ever panned out anywhere about if a Hero were to die in that adventure and 'raised' by the 'priests' by the same 'Ouromar' which apparently did something to that Hero's soul.

It is also possible to purposely block out access to a. . . soulspring, if you will, as is seen when Illiir commanded Beltine not to allow any Dwarf/Celestial Giant souls into her Cauldron as part of the curse on them. Hell, the whole case with the Dwarves brings the whole economy of souls to a new question with the knowledge that the Dwarves of Arcanis only represent a portion of the total population, and that there are still some/most of their population who continue to live un-cursed and presumably un-restricted to the afterlife. It is suggested both on these forums and in canon that this is because the other Celestial Giants are 'beyond Illiir's reach', which is why when one of them came to Arcanis she turned into a Dwarf, but that means that those other Giants are also (presumably) beyond BELTINE'S reach as well, which means that somehow Beltine (in denying the Dwarves access to the Cauldron) acquired the right to their souls to deny them their passage in the first place. This means either the Celestial Giants of Arcanis were somehow swayed away from their original afterlife/soul-cycle towards the Pantheon (and Beltine in particular), or that Beltine somehow has the ability to 'intercept' souls and divert them to her Cauldron. Did the Pengik (said to preexist the coming of the Mandai to Onara) have their souls get munched on by Kassagore before the PoM came, and now their souls are taken by Beltine? How about the (other?) Savosh like the (presumed) Myrantians and Ossarians? What about the Ss'ressen? Hell, what about the Elorii?!

In terms of extra planar beings, my one huge problem with the above debates is that they rely and Dungeons and Dragons Logic, using cosmologies from books written when the universe of Arcanis had to (by design or by necessity) be crowbarred into that system and multiverse. We have already seen how in the present form of the game a lot of the 'needed' aspects of D&D have been tossed aside and worked into new forms (ie: the Gar representing the 'goblinoid' and warg races, the disappearance of Minotars in their traditional form, the different backstory of Naga being corrupted Ssanu instead of their own independent race, etc), so why would we hold to the same models of the universe? Why do Celestials have to be the anti-Infernals--alignment-fixed beings of not particular loyalty to a deity--and why can they not be something else?

My view of them remains that celestial creatures are almost a construct form, created by the Gods in question by splitting off a portion of their essence/personality/etc and encasing them in a physical form. This could be why all the Valinor are the "X of Y" in name, as while they may have their own consciousness and to us narrow-minded mortals seem like complex but unique individuals, their dominant personality seems reflective of their divine title. The Pride of Illiir ended up suffering hubris, the Judgement of Nier seems almost incorruptable, etc. If the Valinor were entirely autonomous beings who were simply 'recruited' by the Gods, it brings up the question as to where they came from, why the Gods have them, why only some gods have them, etc. Hell, it even fits fairly well into my 'head-canon' for the behaviour of the Valinor: They seem to fight among themselves, and they seem to have some particularly self-centred ideals, but in every case that I have seen of them in canon they always seem to be acting in what they believe is the best interest of their God. Manetas forced himself on the Imperium because he felt that humanity needed a firmer guiding hands. . . by Illiir's Will. The Sleeping Emperor removed the Khitani from the fall of the rest of the Imperium. . . by Larissa's Will. The Hatred of Neroth liked killing things (likely) because it viewed its roll as bringing about the death and pain that is Neroth's due. This is (likely) why so many of the Valinor swayed from their paths by Sarish during the God's War and the Elder Wars chose to become is Demon-Prince minions rather than be cut adrift. They are all a part (or a reflection) of their creator-deity's unknowably vast essence and mind, alien and vast to us simplistic creatures, but no smarter or complicated than a wristwatch to the Gods who created them.

Moving on to other celestials, perhaps the ability to create these creatures (horcrux style?) is not well known among the other gods? Maybe the reason we haven't seen Yig/Anshar or Belisarda or Kassagore or the Varn having their own celestial servants is because they simply don't know how. Aside from Wantir, the only beings we know of who makes extensive use of celestial creatures are the Pantheon of Man, so maybe the knowledge of making celestial constructs was simply not present on Arcanis (or, not well developed) until they came, with Wantir's Death Angels representing a prototype version of the process? Another idea could be that beings like Kassagore and Yig didn't make celestial creatures out of their own essence because doing so would dilute their own essence or power, and everything I've read about Yig in particularly suggests to me that she wouldn't want to give up any of her own power for any reason. Hell, we have suggestions that Yarris doesn't even have 'true' Valinor his other ten fellows (still wondering about Althares too, since we haven't heard any of his Valinor popping up yet either), which could mean that he was also 'late to the party' of this knowledge or didn't want to go through whatever process of acquiring his own Valinor.

Anyway, this is how the systems work within my own head-canon based on what I've seen. What I have said is not backed up (except insofar as detailed above) in any published text and could be 100% wrong.

Food for thought.

I confess that I think valinor and their gods are essentially separate beings and are not tiny fragments of a unified divinity. The loss of the Patience of Illiir does not make Illiir impatient. And at least theoretically a valinor like the Word of Illiir should survive on its own if somehow Illiir dies (again). In the case of the Celestials known as Veil Walkers we have the story that they were created from the souls of the most pious followers of Beltine and Neroth. Not sure where Shield Maidens come from or how they were created. Or what other kinds of Celestials are out there.

As for why the PoM has celestial servants while other Deities generally don't...I think that has to do with where you are on the "Onion." If you're immortal and godlike but you originate or mostly live on the Third Layer (elemental lords) then you have elemental servants. If you originate from or live on the 5th layer (and are immortal and godlike) you have celestial (or infernal) servants. Pantheon of Man, looking at you. If you live on 6th layer (Tzizhet, maybe the Varn) you've got elder horrors on tap.

If you primarily live on the 4th layer (where Arcanis floats) I don't really know what you'd get. Primal spirits? Nothing? Everything?

Neither mainstream Belisarda nor Yig nor Kassegore seem to have much in the way of divine servants. Though the mention of the Plant Lords and the 12 True dragon children of Kassegore &Yig are interesting... The Skinless Lady has a boatload of infernals...also interesting.

Last thought, as I think about it, its not clear to me that Kas &Yig predominantly belong to the 4th shell.

Veil Walkers? Source? (not ringing a bell)

Sorry Veil Maiden. Not Veil Walker. Source: For the Lesser Gods PDF.

Thanks, I have it but still hadn't read it.

My only issue with this is that it is only a 'celestial' under D&D logic. That does not mean they STILL are celestials. Hell, in current Arcanis parlance they'd probably be Shades.

I don't recognize the document name.

It is a Module with background or an unpublished piece from Paradigm?

Cheers

It is listed (IIRC) as a print product similar to Lord of the Pack, and is considered a Year 6 Personal Quest for the Etzhara.

Perhaps but I doubt it.

My understanding is that the "generic" version of the shade is a tortured thing because its half in and half out of the Cauldron. I think its essentially a rogue soul operating on its own (usually against the divine plan). Against that a Veil Maiden is soul transmuted into something else - a "celestial." It primarily resides on another plane and is a divine servant.

Read the PDF. I think its pretty clear they aren't shades. (but even if you still end up disagreeing, its got all kinds of good stuff in it)