So many things in being mentioned here that I’ve wondered about!

1. I agree that some of the talk of “celestials” might be a holdover from 3.5 campaign, and that is one of the reasons why I asked the question in the first place. To see if any of these things still exist, and if so, in what form. In the previous campaign there were summoning spells, and you could summon celestials. Today summoning is much more restricted, and almost the only things summonable are fiends. There is one divine spell to summon a guardian angel, which is therefor pretty obviously affiliated with the PoM.

2. This led into the question about whether there is anything besides fiends and PoM representatives that could be summoned – i.e. benign outsiders that for simplicity I am calling celestials. Because servants of the PoM don’t seem to be the flip side of fiends. There are many more fiends (we believe) and they are unaffiliated with a god (we believe). They are so prolific that they are scooped up in industrial amounts by Sarish and never seem to diminish. So why are all the unaffiliated outsiders evil? I'm wondering if I already answered that for myself - that all the non-evil would have seen the light that helping the PoM was in their own best interest, and thus would be aligned with them and thus part of the PoM now. But that's just me rationalizing. We've seen that the PoM has nonhuman worshippers on other planes, and possibly on Onara (deep ones for Yarris?) so why not entire legions of servants out there we are unaware of as well.

3. As for servants of the PoM, what are they? Obviously Valinor are complex, either being a fragment of a god’s divinity or shaped in reflection of it. It is as possible they are constructs as independent outsiders – especially since they generally evaporate upon death. But other servants seem to exist, but aren’t explained either, despite them being potentially more accessable to humans. Veil Maiden’s are a great example. Are they outsiders, spirits, shades, or something else? Possible people with souls, who died to because shades and were converted in heaven into spirits? How complex can this get?

4. I ask this because it leads into a lot of the questions about souls and spirits, and what is what. We know beltine’s followers are the experts on shades. But shaman’s are the experts on spirits. Both of those fall under knowledge religion right now. Are the spirits of the “Bane of Chendo” (or whatever their name was) bound by Beltine’s church now shades, or spirits? Is there a link between the two, and if so, what is it? In “For the Lesser Gods” there appear to be spirit servants of the PoM present, and a link between shamans and gods, but now all shaman are essentially forced to be outside the PoM. People appear to have souls, which can become shades, but I believe we refer to the “soul” of an Elorii as a spirit. I’m very interested in where these lines intersect.

5. The question about the celestial giants mentioned above is one I’ve wondered about as well. Obviously on Onara they are bound by the PoM, but apparently elsewhere they aren’t. That does make a very interesting question about what happens to the souls of those elsewhere, and what used to happen to their souls before they tied themselves to the PoM. This is especially true since the new history section of the blessed lands book seems to indicate that the Ssethregorans found it necessary to have divine magic to open gates – gates that we believe the celestial giants were the technological source of. If their gates required divine magic to use, who supplied that when the celestial giants (and cyclops) used them? Were the celestial giants celestial enough to use them without a god’s help? Or was there a PoG (pantheon of giants) that we haven’t seen any sign of? And if so, I expect they’re not too happy with what the PoM has done to the dwarves…  (I consider this highly unlikely)

Another thing to remember is that Henry has previous suggested (not sure if he has settled on it) is that Spirits =/= Souls. There was a post a while ago where he was discussing that humans have souls, but elementals and infernals have spirits. Elorii were a strange question that he was (publically at least) on the fence about.

Generally speaking people have souls and through cosmic misadventure they can become shades which pretty much sucks.

A spirit is something different. Usually we refer to spirits in the context of primal casters. Primal casters in the Hinterlands and the Westernlands commune with the "spirits of the land" in something that resembles Animism. More fearsome spirits are also attached to the underworld. Perhaps these were formerly souls that have been transformed into something else. It is not clear to me if (at least some) elementals and infernals also act as spirits.

I would of course defer to a direct pronouncement from Henry, but I've always believed that elorii have souls (Only Belisarda and Kassegore have been given credit for creating mortals with souls).

As to why people of Onara seem to be ignorant of other "celestial" out here ... well beyond the fact that the sumooning options are limited I would note that the Pantheon of Man is a jealous group that defends its prerogatives. The company line of the PoM is that Belisarda is not a real goddess (anymore than the elemental lords are/were) nor is Tzizhet (... a godlike eldritch horror). So I would assume the PoM frowns on giving out the phone number to any creature that has its own spin on what constitutes divinity.

I think this changed between rules. I thought there were some spells that explicitely effected souls under the last set of rules that stated that they did not effect Elorii. Under current rules all spells that target the soul effect Elorii, and one Elorii spell is even titled "Elemental Soul." I thought there was a historical comment from Henry that said that Elorii didn't have souls, but that doesn't appear to be the case anymore from the rules.

It is true that shaman interact with spirits, but spirits are left very undefined, and as you see in "for the lesser gods" divine beings seem to run around a lot in the spirit world. Are Valinor spirits? What about other beings? If elementals and infernals act as spirits, than how does sarishan binding work with spirits, and how do shamanistic powers work with infernals?



We know that the church has declared these to not be gods. Do we know that the Gods have? The gods apparently teach not to mess with them, and are obviously very jealous, but do we know how the gods (not the church) feel about them?

You are correct that we don't understand the spirit world very well. That's not an accident. Our world view flows outward from the Capitals of Coryan and Milandir (and to a lesser extent Altheria, Almeric, Canceri & Eppion/Metra). Even the First City remains essentially unknown outside of a few important NPCs. Areas with a strong connection to the spirit world are fringy and disrespected as a rule from these viewpoints.

Sarish and his Temple are concerned with infernals and not animistic spirits of the world. A Sarishian Binder does not know how to bind the spirits primal casters interact with. (Unless perhaps there is a group of primal casters that is empowered by selling their soul to an infernal power). Similarly Shamans don't generally have any special binding powers over infernals (although as tier 3 & 4 spells they can make infernal pacts and effect banishments).

Infernals and elements do sometimes act as spirits. One of the key components seems to be incorporeality and an influence over their environment. But we've seen at least one major elemental spirit from the Pricklespur in a corporeal form...

If one gained a sufficient vantage then perhaps commonalities might be found ... but its tough for a living campaign to address these questions. I would note that the "common" understanding of magic in current campaign is impoverished compared to the great works executed in the past (or perhaps still in Ymandragore). This essentially remains true for most Tier 5 casters. One of the first steps to a deeper understanding would be expertise in Knowledge (metaphysics). Its not allowed, but learning to craft runes would be another preliminary step (currently banned in the living campaign).

Yes, one of the things I hope to deal with eventually is fleshing out knowledge subspecialties more. Eventually, somewhere depressingly far down the road, my secondary character will have skill focus knowledge (arcanum), skill focus knowledge (history), and skill focus knowledge (religion). I'm interested in what subspecialties I can choose, and what someone who takes them might know. It especially seems like if someone has a passive knowledge arcanum (spell theory) in the mid to high 30's, that there should be a possibility of creating new spells, or learning how different traditions fit in with each other. Or if he takes skill focus knowledge religion (spirits and shades) that it would be possible to learn more about how these things interact.

But I know it won't be unless it comes out in a module.

I think that is both a cool concept and a cool goal. But also be aware of the limitations of the Living Campaign format. In a home campaign you might "force" some discoveries with skill and talent selections in a back and forth with your GM.

In a living campaign this is a different kind of fish. In the last campaign there a few elorii players who thought they could (should) gain more information about Elonbe by maxing out knowledge (history/religion:elori). But they were essentially frustrated because the campaign generally releases secrets at it own pace (with an eye towards to plot line).

Most of the oppertunities I have had as a player to learn secrets or partake in special missions or do something unique all came from talking to Henry/Staff at cons orcas rewards for volunteering in some capacity (running BIs and Special missions, writing modules etc). They haven't come from building up skill ranks and taking talents.

Oh, I totally get that. It seems that there should be some basic "here's how the world works" stuff that should be learnable by high ranks, since theoretically your character can experiment, etc. But most the really cool stuff is probably spoilers, and definitely shouldn't be obtainable just by a high number on a sheet.

Unique opportunities are the big thing - they are what may a player feel included, invested, and like they are making a difference. They are what makes a campaign feel responsive. But on the flip side, they are labor intensive for campaign staff and invariably lead to player concerns about fairness. I think that learning secrets in return for sacrifices that support the campaign like writing and judging is a perfect response.