So, I’m working on a Val’Vasik priest and it occurred to me, what way do priests learn their cants?

1. Learn them all as they get their initial training, even those they aren’t powerful enough to cast yet, or;

2. Learn only what you are powerful enough to cast.

I strongly suspect that it is #2 (but let me know if I am wrong), which raised several thoughts/questions

A. As a Val’Vasik, I was part of a church created by Xabal. I assume I learned all the tier I spells from that church. But if I am going to advance as a priest and get Tier II spells, I need to join a new church right? Since I don’t know those spells myself? So there is really no option for a Val’Vasik to remain a member of the Church of Bastion.

B. Unless… there were several NPC Val’Vasik reserved for campaign use. Are any of them higher tier priests that could be the head of a Church?

C. Since I need to join a church, what Church can I join? I know that we have been invited to be part of Milandir, and thus I could join the Milandesian Church, but Elandre’s attitude seems a lot more in line with the former Church of Bastion. I assume I can say I’m a member of the mother church of Coryan (despite not being from Coryan) but I could never be an inquisitor since I’m not Coryani, correct?

D. How does Elandre’s (or the Church of Milandir) church compare to Xabal’s? Is there anything that an Illiirite from Bastion would be agast at? Aside from the crazy stuff all those worshippers of all those other dieties do, of course. Those crazy guys should really remember that Illiir is their god’s boss….

E. What does a member of Bastion’s church think of reunification of Churches? A no brainer that Illiir wanted us all to be part of one church (or else Xabal wouldn’t have supported all those other churches in Bastion) or, “Oh my god, you’re already so far from the fold, don’t go even further by talking to those guys…” (since any Church with Sarishan’s in it probably looks horrific to a person from Bastion)

F. Unless a higher level priest survived, this means that the Illiir specific variant of the blessed weapon cant is still unknown, correct? (since all player character priests are too low tier to have learned it from Xabal before Bastion’s destruction)

The joys of the mechanics not exactly jiving with the narrative. . .

The way I figured it is that when a priest is learning their cants they only learn the Tier I cants, with more powerful ones being learned later. It is entirely possible to learn more (requiring more personal faith/charisma to cast), but from a mechanics = narrative perspective this is not reflected.

As the mechanics of it work right now, the "Church of Illiir via Xabal" is its own sect distinct from Milandir, Canceri, Coryan, Khitan, etc. However, for all intents and purposes a "Diminish Fatigue" taught by the Dark Triumvirate is identical to the one taught by the Mother Church of Coryan as they come from the same source. Any differences would be fairly minor (unlike similar cants for gods like Belisarda, Kassagore/Fire Dragon, etc), so technically a Bastionite could 'pick up' these cants from 'Southron' churches without too much trouble.

As for if there are any Bastionite Priests left, that is entirely possible. We know that one of the NPC's that survived wasn't a priest, but the others could be so this is another possible in-character source. Hell, there could be a cache of books with these cants available in the val'Vasik enclaves that you could use to teach them to yourself, or if the val'Vasik mentagi survived (if one existed) the knowledge of such things could be found in there.

Of all the southron churches, the Milandric Orthodox Church is probably the closest in terms of practices to the Bastionite Church. While Sabinus was a corrupt, power-hungry soul, the church itself is far more ascetic and less tolerant than the Mother Church of Coryan. While Elandre' herself may be ascetic and intolerant, the Coryani traditionally are more accepting and we know that the Matriarch has been fighting against her own Church to bring about her 'Illiirite Reforms'.

Bastionites would probably be very confused by the worship of anyone but Illiir in the southron nations, as Henry has gone on record in saying that really he was the only one worshiped in Bastion. Sure, Xabal would make his followers honour Larissa and Saluwe' and Hurrian and such, but Xabal himself only knew the Illiirite cants and powers, so they were the only ones with a proper priesthood in Bastion. A number of Bastionites might actually view the worship of anyone else (especially Sarish) to be blasphemy. In this regard, they'd probably be more aligned with Elandre' val'Assante's faction in the Mother Church of Coryan as what she wants to do probably mirrors their own upbringing.

So, to summerize (my views, at least): You can probably stay a "Bastionite Church" follower unless Henry says no, if you choose not to the Milandesian Orthodox Church is probably more to your personal upbringing, if you do go Mother Church of Coryan you'd almost have to be a follower of Matriarch Elandre' as her personal views are probably even more palatable than the Milandesian Church even if her total church is far more liberal.

I didn't realize the Milandesian Church was more ascetic. I'm surprised since there doesn't appear to be a tradition of an inquisition associated with it. How do they keep the flock in line?

I would like to know if it would be possible for a Val'Vasik to stay independent as a member of their own church, but it would seem that if it is possible, the Illiirites would have access to at least the Illiirite version of bless weapon, and potentially other unique Illiirite cants (no longer known by the other churches. And since that wasn't discussed in the Val'Vasik cert, I assume that isn't the case.

There are many similarities between the world of Arcanis and the real world. I've always thought of it as a priest's early training requiring them to learn the 'language' of the cants (in the same way some catholic priests learn latin), as well as the basic cants they are capable of.

We've been told many times that the cants are essentially just a formula; a pattern of words, gestures etc that, with divine backing, create a magical effect. Once a priest understands how cants work and can 'speak the language', it would be a relatively simple matter for them to memorize a new set of cants once they gain the experience to learn more.

I would lean towards #2. And If I was running a home campaign I would probably require a val Vasik character to either join another church to learn additional cants ...or... somehow get their hands on scrolls/ancient works that contain the appropriate cants written down.

In the Legends Campaign though I don't think this is a good idea.

I would note that casting a Cant is a two step process. The memorization of the cant "primes the gun" and your faith "pulls the trigger." So while I favor #2, I also can't tell you as a player or judge that situation #1 isn't actually correct. Maybe you do learn a wider variety of Cants at the very beginning, but that its only as your faith grows and deepens that through meditation (yadda yadda yadda) you unlock the triggers to additional Cants. It seems to me that could also work.

The short answer is: If you are playing a val'Vasik, build your character in a way that makes internal sense for you and will be fun to play.

Its worth remembering that the Milandesian orthodox Church is less than 50 years old. And until Sabinius died, had only been under his leadership. Sabinius, we all know OOC, was not a white hat/good guy. I am not sure how much interest he had in building up the infrastructure of the MOC as opposed to consolidating his own power.

In the Spear of Loghin PCs meet a Nerothian "heretic" from Canceri preaching openly in Ashvan/Milandir. PCs are told the authorities put up with it, largely because (1) they'd rather have it "in the open" where they can keep track it than some kind of underground movement & (2) there is a cultural expectation in Milandir that people can speak their own minds. PCs potentially get in trouble for attacking the Nerothian.

With this in mind it hard for me to see a Milandesian Inquisition taking root. On the one hand I don't know of anyone Sabinius would have entrusted with the position of head Inquisitor and on the other it would ruffle a lot of feathers. And the guys who have feathers also have halberds and crossbows and know how to use them effectively...

At the same time Milandir is a (much) more conservative society than Coryan. A Milandsian guy's idea of risque behavior/titilation is going to a public dance and smiling at and dancing next to (without quite touching) a girl. The Coryani version of risque behavior is heading to Savona for a Bacchanalia.

Sabinius may have been lax in holding up public morality. Elandre may be trying to reign in perceived Coryani excess. But the base lines they are working off of are very different.


I would say yes.

If a player wanted to remain part of the Church of Bastion, then I think that's that. As a judge I'm certainly not going to tell someone that's impossible when they've paid money to the kickstarter campaign for the privilege of their special character. Rock on. It would be *nice* if they had a IC reason why that was working (another val'Vasik continues to teach you, found a cache of sacred scrolls in the Blessed Lands, Loshnek cut a "special deal" with you in exchange for your soul... whatever). Bear in mind this potentially causes you grief when Smiting and Channeling spells start being tossed about.

In name only, the church is much older than 50 years. I was curious about the difference between the Coryani Mother Church and the Milandric Orthodox Church. I, like many people I knew, believed that the Milandric Church was created a short time ago, and was based on excluding Neroth, Nier, and Sarish. But that is wrong. The ARPG talks about these two churches on pg 77 - 79.
Basically when Elandre had a vision of holy texts lost within the First City. She sent people to retrieve them. These texts called the Revelations of Illiir had a more conservative view on the way religious people should act. When they were being implemented Coryani pushed back on some of the fun ones like alcohol consumption, and Elandre has since stopped pushing for them...for now.
Milander refused to implement the Revelations and kept the Church the exact same way. This is the Milandric Orthodox Church.

So to anyone who played the old Campaign, the Coryani Mother Church has changed in 50 years and it's actually the new one, in fact you might be for Elandre's changes or against them. Yea Church war.
The Milandric church would be the one you know and love from the old campaign. Just as Milander kicked out members of the church who did want to follow Elandre, they could have brought in those who didn't. Milander could have been a safe haven to any faithful who didn't want to change to Elandre's view. Also this would have rounded out any followers of gods they didn't have a large concentration of.

Now don't get me wrong I know Milandisian are more prudish and hateful of the 3 "dark gods". But they still follow Larissa, they have stopped ignoring Sarish since the Crusade, they would have used Neroth in his caring for dead bodies (but no undead or disease), and they prefer Hurrian's Warrior aspect over Nier's but Nier was re-added to the church in 1027 by decree of Calcestus.
While the people may not be 100% on board with the idea their church represents all 12 gods.

If we are talking about cants and churches. I would assume all the cants are the same for each God regardless of Church. If you look at spells there are no church specific spells, or church specific adaptations. Just deity specific.
So a val'Vasik could learn higher cants from Milander or Coryan regardless of what church he/she follows.

Ya, I realize a Val'Vasik could join either church, and that the Cant's from both churches would be the same. I had two basic questions that spawn some secondary questions.

1. Which Church would a val'Vasik be more comfortable in? (I'm thinking Elandre's version of the Church, though the mother church may not yet reflect her goal yet - I could see a val'Vasik being a very powerful follower of Elandre) That spawns the secondary question of what paths a Val'Vasik can take - I assume all the Milandesian ones since they can be residents of Milandir, but I assume not the Coryani ones. So no matter how devout (or fanatical) a follower of Elandre's reforms, they could never join the Inquisition. Is that correct?

2. Is there an option to join neither Church and instead to stay a member of the Church of Bastion and get higher tier Illiriic spells as taught by that Church? This does have a campaign impact for while 90% of their Cants would be the same, we know of at least one (Illiriic specific version of bless weapon) that is missing in other organized churches. (and who knows if they had others? They should!)

Until Henry makes a final say on this:

1) As I mentioned before, organizationally and geographically they would be most comfortable with the Milandric Orthodox Church as Milandesian society is more conservative than the Coryani one, and the church reflects this. However, it would not be out of character for a val'Vasik to be very much into Elandre' val'Assante' SPECIFICALLY and her interpretation of the scriptures, but the Mother Church of Coryan would probably have far less appeal than the Milandric one. As to the Inquisition I do not think they may mechanically join, but an NPC val'Vasik could if they showed the appropriate. . . fervor. Hell, Elandre' would probably love to have a val'Vasik come because of how close they were to a known Valinor of Illiir, and it shows that even foreigners are good children of the Gods!

2) Honestly, I don't think it is an issue for the most part. You can say that you are an adherent of the Church of Bastion/Cult of Xabal, and get all of what you want without much of an issue except for very specifically noted church exclusive spells and abilities. Anything that doesn't in very clear letters say you can't have it is likely fair game.

It is true that the schism started by Elandre's proposed changes to the Mother Church. None the less I don't think its debatable that Elandre's MC looks a lot more like the MC of the last campaign than the MOC.

Consider: 3 of the PoM are marginalized in Milandir. The Fire Dragon is accepted as a deity in Milandir. Milandir has the offices of Bishops and a Primarch rather than Prelates, Archprelates, Pyremen and a Matriarch/Patriarch. And finally the King of Milandir has power over religious appointments.

The Milandric Church •IS NOT• a continuation of the original MC teachings. It has made radical changes to its dogma and reshuffled its lines of organization.



I agree with this. But as a practical matter I don't think you could get access to those Cants w/o joining a faction (or hiring adventures to steal copies for you). Still for the Living Campaign I think this gets hand waved.