Hmm I must have missed the bit about the King having power over appointments....I smell an Investiture Controversy brewing here. Appropriate given the Germanic background of Milandir. Given the real world history of this event might make for an interesting soft point. Or to take it in a different direction take a look and the tangled web between Henry II of England and Thomas Beckett. Church and State politics can be so much fun...

An Illiirite is an Illiirite no matter what country or what church you are in there is no difference between their magic.

A val'Vasik doesn't need to join either church to learn cants. They could walk into a temple of Illiir and ask to learn the higher ones. Remember neither church is Pantheistic so while the CMC and MOC work within themselves collectively to support each god, each god has their own internal hierarchy when it comes to priests and such. Would the Illiirite try to convert the val'Vasik, absolutely. But in the end they are brothers of faith and he would teach him what he would need to learn the next level cants.

Where a val'Vasik would feel more comfortable is a subjective decision based on your character's personality.

Just because the val'Vasik had Xabal doesn't mean they knew how to cast Bless Weapon (Illiir). Consider that spell lost. No church that we know of has it. Just as Tempered Sarishian Steel was lost until it's rediscovery with Haina and the Tomb of Hilur. I'm sure Henry has a pleasant surprise for us when the times comes.

And again there are no church spells, or nation spells.
There spells that are restricted by your race, by your Val family, or by your source.
But a Sarishian priest from Cancari, Coryani and Milander all have the same access. For now.



You are right that the Fire Dragon was added to this Church. And that the Milandric Church uses different titles. They minimize Neroth and Nier. They removed Sarish and brought him back. Hence why when channeling the are considered different from the Mother Church. But they have not altered their teachings.

But you are wrong about their dogma. The teachings of the human Gods and practices that should be followed by the faithful are the same from 50 years ago.
You can't say that because Milander is more conservative they changed their teachings. Because Elandre wanted to make everything more fundamental and conservative and Milander broke away. Milander should have seen this as Coryan finally smartening up, reigning in those wild Larissians, and the other excesses Coryani are know to take part in. Instead they saw this as changes to the Canticles of the Pantheon and the Illuminated Perfection, the Codification of the Teachings of Illiir, laid down by the First Imperium and they refused to budge.
Milander put their decision to keep everything the same right in their name Orthodox they have kept their teachings the original way.

The Mother Church of Coryani is not the same. Elandre was successful in pushing through some of her changes even though the larger changes were stopped. And she still wants a lot more.

The Coryani Mother Church is still the Heir to the Pantheistic Church of the First Imperium, but it has changed their teachings in 50 years because of Elandre.
The Milandric Orthodox Church is the continuation of what the Coryani Mother Church was, for the human gods. Their Illiirite teachings, Hurrian, Saluwe, Cadic, Beltine, Sarish, Larissa, Yarris, Althares, and Anshar. They minimize Neroth and Nier but that have not changed their teachings at all.

To be honest, I don't think either of you are quite correct.

The Mother Church of Coryan is, but its original design, a confederation of allied temples of the traditional human deities. As with most things, I associate it to my own country of Canada: We are a decentralized federation of provinces held together (rather loosely, actually) by our federal government in the form of our House of Commons and Senate under the auspice of the Queen of England, as represented by Her Majesty's Governor-General. Each province has their own government (Legislature/National Assembly, depending on province) with their own equivalent of the House of Commons, and their own Lieutenant-Governor who 'rules' the province in the name of the Queen (through the Governor-General). Each of these bodies make laws specific to their own territories, with some sectors handled internally by the provineces (such as natural resources, prisons, healthcare outside of the Federally mandated Medicare, education, etc) while the Federal government passes laws that would affect the provinces externally or for nation-wide laws, foreign relations, defence, etc.

[NOTE: for those not familiar, the Queen, Governor-General, and Lieutenant-Governors have great power in Canada, but through tradition rather than rule of law have been reduced to little more than ceremonial positions]

The Mother Church of Coryan--by my read--is very similar to this. Each of the Twelve Temples of the Church have (on paper) sole jurisdiction on their own areas of worship including what is and is not heresy. Each of these Temples have their own Prelates, their own private armies in the form of Templars and Holy Champions to deal with their own security and interests, collect their own tithes (at least in the case of Larissans and Ansharans, IIRC), and generally politick in a way to ensure their own power and/or independence (as seen in the Beltinian/Nerothian arguments at the Church's founding). These independent bodies then elect internally their Pyrmen and Prelates who represent the interests of their faiths to the various high councils of the Mother Church of Coryan (similar to Canada's House of Commons and Senate, more so the latter as I don't think much democracy is occurring here).

This higher 'federal' council would then pass judgement on things which ONLY affect the faith as a whole, rather than each God's or Temple's interest. If a particular heresy got beyond the point of a Temple's ability to self-police, then the Inquisition is sent in like the FBI or RCMP would be in the USA and Canada. If they face an ecumenical threat like the Church of the Dark Triumvirate, they would be the ones who call for jihad or crusade or whatever other Holy War is called for (like the Heretic Wars between Milandir and Canceri). However, this council (headed by the Patriarch/Matriarch, who by my view is more the First Among Equals than a true "Pope", serving at the Emperor's sufference like how the Prime Minister of Canada is technically a servant of the Crown) holds little actual power in the actual structuring of the Mother Church itself.

The Milandric Orthodox Church, however, seems to be moving away from this system. We know the Orthodox Church is basically a power-grab by Sabinus val'Assante' after Elandre' came to power, which means that the position of the Primarch seems to hold more executive power than the Patriarch/Matriach (as seen by the titles themselves, with Primarch implying more unified power than a motherly/fatherly steering role). This is seen by the fact that Sabinus had the authority to basically 'cut funding' to the Temple of Hurrian in Milandir, which was a primary motivation for Templar Tillman's actions in the Sixth Crusade of Light. This also is how the Primarch simply could say "Yay, the Fire Dragon is one of us now!" and nobody--doctrinally--argues with the fact, or how Sabinus could simply say that the 'Dark Trinity' of Gods from Canceri could be decreasingly worshipped in favour of more 'family friendly' gods.

This is quite the opposite with the Mother Church. We know that Elandre' val'Assante'--the former vessel of Illiir--has VERY strong views of what she wants the Mother Church of Coryan to become, and has tried to force it down the throats of the Mother Church as a Absolute Monarch would. However, because she is basically the Prime Minister of the Mother Church than the King (or, Vizier, in the case of Sabinus), all she has realistically accomplished is to apply these changes to her own allied Temples such as the Temple of Illiir, while groups like the Temple of Larissa block the 'Church-wide' laws requiring them to adhere to it from passing. Basically, from my view, Elandre' is trying to turn the Mother Church of Coryan INTO the Milandric Orthodox Church, but is failing.

I understand what you mean Nierite, and I agree with you on your description of the macro level of the church. The two churches are very different in leadership structure and powers given to individual people including their leaders. And as you mentioned which gods they include or exclude.

But I am talking about the teachings from each individual god, not as the church as a whole.
I like your example of Elandre's influence on the Illiirite church. Let us say she succeed in forcing Illiirites to no longer imbibe or use alcohol during Sunday mass. The Milandric Church didn't change, so they still do.
Imagine Elandre forced Ansharans to no longer use spiked whips to flog themselves (think Silas from The Di Vinci's Code) because the Revelations of Illiir states that bodies of the faithful must be unblemished. Well in the Milandric Church this is still perfectly fine for Ansharans.
What if Elandre implemented that to be a Priestess of Saluwe the female must have already given birth to one child because the Revelations of Illiir states to lead those in the worship of the Mother of Gods one must be a mother herself. Milander's Saluw's don't have that rule.

I can go on and on. I know I'm making up all these examples because honestly we don't know what Elandre did change, but she changed something. And that is why the Coryani Mother Church is different from 50 years and the Milandric one is not.

From what canon gives us, I think that Elandre' has effectively changed NOTHING in the Mother Church except add the Revelations of Illiir to the Temple of Illiir. Almost all of what we know of the Mother Church in the meantime is that 1) Milandir succeeded (they were uncomfortable with the MCoC anyway, coupled with Sabinus' power hunger), and 2) that every other Temple (or at least enough of them) have resisted Elandre's commands enough to have her basically make no headway. As such, I think the Mother Church of Coryan has been the LEAST affected compared to the two.

Milandir, on the other hand, has always been far less willing to accept aspects of the Gods that Coryan was generally okay with:

In Coryan, Nier is viewed as the Divine Judge, the defender of the faith. In Milandir he is an evil god, with only tacit worship of him allowed as per the Canticle where every God must have their due. When Milandir left, they actually 'demoted' Nier almost to the point where he was viewed in Coryan prior to Calcestus.

In Coryan, while undead are generally frowned upon (and in some places, actively destroyed), to the best of my knowledge they are not outlawed by the Coryani Temple of Neroth. In Milandir, however, they would ACTIVELY seek to eliminate undead and only worship Neroth in his role as the healer of the sick and the mentally ill.

In Coryan, Sarish has a large portfolio of duties, especially in his Oath aspect, but his role as a Binder of Demons and magic are probably widely accepted. In Milandir, the Demon bit was only RE-added very recently with his pre-Schism power massively diminished to put him on the same step as Nier and Neroth.

Milandir is basically a 4 God kind of Country: Illiir, Yarris, Saluwe', and (decreasingly, we learned) Hurrian. Cadic outside of his role in the arts would offend Milandesian honour, so while he fulfills a role his assassin and murder aspects would be downplayed compared to Coryan. Beltine worship is significantly lower than in Coryan, where the val'Ishi hold sway over Valentia. Althares is worshipped about as much as in Coryan in general and probably has not decreases in jurestiction, though Anshar might have subdued worship due to the val'Inares in Milandir. This leaves Larissa, and the Milandesians have always been a bit. . . less pleased with how the Coryani say is the proper form of Larissan worship. They may accept this is a side of Larissa, but the hedonism aspect has to be more subdued in Milandir.

To sum up, I do not think that Milandir is the "True Mother Church of Coryan", but I do not think that the MILANDESIANS have changed their worship any after the Schism. What the schism allowed them to do is throw away the aspects of the Gods their society most hated (mostly due to Canceri) while keeping the ones they wanted. Coryan, on the other hand, has stayed largely where they were in 1030 I.C. with the exception of more inclusive Nier worship and a bit more ascetic Illiir worship. Hell, the rest of the temples may have become even more 'free' without the force of the See in Tralia imposing Milandesian morals on the rest of the Empire.

@Vault I think we have a fundamentally different idea of what constitutes dogma and teachings.

If you are restricting yourself to what kind of answers you get at a "street level" from what I think of as Sunday School questions like, "How do I live a good life?" or "What sorts of behaviors should I avoid?" then you do indeed have a valid point that Elandre is trying to change the way things are being done. I also concede that Elandre is trying to meddle in the internal teachings of individual temples. I am certain in Milandir they say that they have stayed faithful to the teaching of the Mother Church and that its Elandre that's making changes ...

I think this analysis though is limited and flawed. And the Milandesians are essentially wrong (while I think some drift has gone on in both locations since the days of Patriarch Felician, I see less is Coryan than I do in Milandir).

My arguments operate on three levels.

(One) it assumes you got the same street level answers on how to conduct your life in Milandir and in Coryan 50 years ago. I believe you didn't. The temples in Milandir have never advocated living like a Coryani. More "conservative" aspects are generally worshiped in Milandir. For example the main branch of the Cadician church in Naeranth and Tralia is based on music (especially Opera). The temples are open and easy to find. While in Savonna and Plexus the biggest Temples are hidden and about knives in the dark. So even though they all previously fit in the acceptable range of the "Temple of Cadic" you just don't see the level of uniformity among temples I think you are implying. You are much more likely to learn about "the passion of beautiful" music in Milandir and about "necessary gritty violence in the dark" in Coryan. If the two Churches continue to drift further apart it may be that the aspect of "assassination" might someday be as formally marginalized in Milandir as are the whole temples of Nier, Neroth and Sarish. We've also seen a significant divide in Larissa's Temple in Naeraanth (Oracular), Savona (Sensate) and Enpyben (essentially half and half). IMO there is no such thing as a "generic Illirite Temple" that holds the same emphasis and teachings in all places.

(Two) it assumes questions like, "Which gods are acceptable to pray to in which circumstances?" somehow doesn't fall into street level teachings. And it is clear to me that Milandir has made radical changes in this regard. I find this more significant than the handling of Ansharan flagellants or how much booze one can consume in a socially acceptable way. Maybe you differ. I feel like issue of sobriety of flagellation are things that might be reconciled. I don't see how the Church of Milandir could ever reconcile with the teachings of the MC (or the First Imperium) without dropping the Fire Dragon. This is NOT a little deal. Then there is ...

(Three) It assumes that the Milandesian branch does not also meddle in what is acceptable teachings for the faithful at large. This is patently false as seen by Sabinius unilaterally marginalizing 1/4 of the Pantheon of Man. And as Cody has said Sabinius meddled within (corrupting) the Temple of Hurrian. And the way the Milandesian Church is set up, it appears to be easier for the Primarch to meddle. That takes us to ...

@ Cody. I completely agree with your interpretation of the Mother Church as a "Federal" system based on ancient compromises. That said I think you are selling Elandre's power very short.

True, Elendre is an unbending/unyielding/uncompromising person. Which makes her a poor politician in a wheeling and dealing sense. But so what? Elandre has access to immense wealth (ie. power), can call on the armed might of the temples and faithful (ie. power), can send the Inquisition to ask questions where ever she is curious (ie. power) ... she has immense power second only to the Emperor. Does she care that the changes she wants to make are coming at a snails pace ... maybe not, its not like she's going anywhere.

I also would point out that the average person does not "belong" to any one temple. They pray and make offerings to Saluwe for a good harvest. And to Yarris before a sea voyage. They pray to Altheris for inspiration and to Sarish before negotiating a difficult contract. Maybe all in the same week. In Coryan that ebb and flow takes place under the rubric of the Mother Church ... and Elandre is the face and leader of that Church. Then of course there is the story of her life. How at great sacrifice she saved the Illuminated Scrolls. And helped (and perhaps some now say led?) the ritual that banished Manetas. Despite the fact that she might be a hard person to like I don't doubt that because of this she has more "soft power" than anyone else in the campaign, even if many people drag their feet on her social agenda because she is "no fun.".

I largely agree with what Cody has said. But there are a few points I either disagree with or think need clarification.

But I want to disagree somewhat here. I think many other temples are dragging their feet without looking like they are actively fighting the Matriarch. I think the people resisting Elandre are on the defensive and are loosing ground (so very very slowly) to her. Since Elandre is ageless she may find this acceptable. I don't see that the same as "basically no headway."


Agreed. In Milandir there is a social/mental difference between the totality of what the PoM permits, and what Milandesians consider to be honorable and proper behavior. BUT ...


I actually disagree with this. The average person fears Neroth and the undead in both Milandir and in Coryan. And things quickly get muddled. Coryan is the home of the Deathbringers who frequently fight undead. Milandir has a fairly public undead Knight Protector in Ashvan ... I actually think the Temple of Neroth is on relatively similar ground in Milandir and in Coryan. In both places: when someone spontaneously comes back as an undead its (grudgingly?) accepted as the will of the Gods. When some necromancer raises an army of ghouls its an abomination. In both places an undead (N)PC could be lynched by a frightened mob iif they aren't careful and discrete in most locations. Weird to think the Temple of Neroth could be a bridge of similarity between the religious differences in Coryan and Milandir.


While I agree with this from a political standpoint (you won't see a Larisan Primarch in Milandir any time soon). I don't know that this is true at a street level. Again "normal" people do not belong to any one temple. They pray and make offerings to Beltine when someone dies. Pray to Saluwe for a good harvest or an easy birth. Pray to Illiir to bess the King and his court. (And maybe pray to the Fire Dragon if they are having dealings with the Black Talons ... this last part is *very* unclear to me). Since the Pantheon of Man covers the whole array of human activity, who you pray to depends on what you're doing. In that sense Milandir is no more a 4 god country than Coryan.


Emphasis mine. I (mostly) agree with this.

Thank you for agree with my limited view val Holryn. (no sarcasm)

I want you to know I agree with your analysis on the overarching differences between the two churches. I claim no contest on that. They are very different from each other. Even if we disagree on the finer points.

Your arguments.
(one) You are right they is no "generic Illiirite Temple". But Coryan is the most diverse of all nations when it comes to the gods. While Milander may only have Cadician temples to his music aspect, Coryan would have temples to all his aspects. You can't compare Coryan and Milander and say Coryan worships his Assassin aspect and Milander his Music. 50 years ago Cadician Music aspect priests would have been the same in Milander and Coryan. Now they may not. While Milander stayed the same, Coryan would have changed under Elandre's influence.

What ever aspect of a god Milander worships, Coryani has the same aspect and usually more aspects for that god. Milander has no unique worship of any of the human gods. The Milandric Church has only limited itself in human god worship.

The Mother Church has all forms of acceptable worship of the human gods within itself.

Even the Dark Triumvirate is based on limiting the worship of Sarish, Neroth, and Nier to aspects that the other churches have minimized or removed. Felican val'Mehan attempted to reintegrate the Dark Triumvirate into the Mother Church by finding the core similarities that exists between their worship, regardless of how different their churches are.

(two) No this is not something the common man would not deal with nor is it something that your local priests would deal with. These are issues for leaders. I'm not talking about this at all. I'm looking at the question "How do I properly worship X aspect of <god>?" Milander is not changing the answer to this question. They have the gods they like, they have the aspects they like. When you ask this question to the local priests from any temple you will get the same answer in Milander from 50 years ago. In a Coryan temple of the same aspect you will get a difference answer from 50 years ago, because of Elandre.

(three) Sabinius pulled funding and forced them to extremes, he did not tell them how they should worship Hurrian. Elandre is stating how worship should change.

Addition of the Fire Dragon doesn't effect how to properly worship Cadic's Music Aspect.
Reduction/removal of Nier doesn't effect whether alcohol or holy water should be used during a blessing of Yarris on a new ship.
The King's ability to appoint Bishops, the self serving reasons that Sabinius broke away, or the corrupt action he took after, has nothing to do with what is in the Revelations of Illiir and the changes to the question "How to you properly worship the gods? that Elandre is trying to finish implementing.

Quick note on expressions of executive power in the Milandesian Church: someone rubber-stamped the building of an temple to Belisarda on Milandesian soil, and that's possibly proof itself.
Seems unlikely to have happened by way of vote in a federated model like might be necessary in Coryan.

Naturally I'm quite curious who, why, when, etc.

Permission was granted by the crown (Osric) during the First LARP set in King Osrics Court. At that LARP all NPCs had a stack of poker chips representing influence. The elori contingent wanted the temples badly. No one else was all that interested as I recall. Other things on the Kings mind included: the fact he might have had a half brother hidden in an Enpyben orphanage. The mystery of who killed Amarita (sp?) val'Holryn who led the griffin riders at Enpyben, Graff Gustov (unsanctioned) reinvading occupied Moratavia and expelling Menisis' legionares...followed by his (successful) bid to shoulder Roderick aside to become Duke, the reappearance of the BT matriarch and her declaration to move the BT to Abessios, an attempt to replace Sabinius, and the Kings resistance to getting married to Acconia val'Dellenov. And Milandir declared war on Canceri...though in the end that didn't stick. (That's just what I remember...)

Suffice it to say, the elori slipped it through by a large amount of horse trading during a very busy summer where Milandesians mostly had other problems. I should also add that Milandir was still part of the MC when this happened.