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Benefitting from Heresy...
https://forums.paradigmconcepts.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1387		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  mighty28 [ Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Benefitting from Heresy...
After reading a post from Devin in another thread, I got to thinking about the rewards from oppositional cultures, factions, etc. He had stated he cannot use a reward that comes from the PoM. Which, is a totally valid character choice. I (hopefully) will get to play my Agamassi for the first time this weekend. As a proud worshiper of Haulis ("All Hail the Bloody Maw!"), I was expecting be in the same boat. But, I got to thinking "why not take the blessings of the faith of others?". Tactically, it makes sense to me to use an enemies resources against them. If you overcome an artillery position, you turn the cannons. Granted, Fate and spells are, essentially, infinite resources that you will not be depriving the enemy the use of, but if their blessing furthers my goals/agenda...why would I say no?

Thoughts?
Author:  acurrier [ Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Benefitting from Heresy...
While there is nothing in the rules to support this, I find myself asking the question of whether the blessings would necessarily be made available to the opposite side. For instance, would Belisarda offer blessings on worshippers of the PoM, if it is true that their Gods consumed her siblings?

By the same regard, I understand why an Elorii would be hesitant to accept the blessings of human gods.

Strictly from a tactical standpoint I would agree with you, unless there is a chance that your deity is a jealous one and perhaps doesn't want you getting too cozy with the gods of the pinkskins ;)
Author:  SamhainIA [ Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Benefitting from Heresy...
As a divine caster, I personally would cast on characters in my own church, and while there are some spells that have the restriction built in, not all of them do so its a preference thing.
Author:  Nierite [ Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Benefitting from Heresy...
Perspectives of my Characters:

1) Haakon - Haakon is fine accepting things like Healing, and even a Benediction of the Gods from a follower of the Fire Dragon or Belisarda. . . as long as they are Ss'ressen or Elorii. However, he would NOT accept healing willingly from a Human Shaman or a Human worshiper of a 'foreign' god as he is a Holy Judge of Nier, dedicated to stamping out heresy and Humans worshiping something other than the PoM is Heresy in his opinion (and the church's). If given an item with a non-PoM Holy symbol, he'd accept the gift if given honestly, but would not keep it on him (placing it in a museum or sending it 'home' to his family estate). If given a direct blessing by the Fire Dragon, however, he would NOT use it at all.

2) Jorma Ostoman - Jorma is pretty much a militant athiest, and would never willingly accept any non-human idol or symbol, and would only accept the human ones if he felt that not doing so would cause him harm (ie: targetted for discrimination).

3) Ruma val'Vasik - He was taught that the other gods were but minor powers, and would be just as amused at others worshiping them as if they were worshiping a rock. . . or The Rock. He would accept a blessing because it is polite and Xabal says we must all be polite at all times!
Author:  blackthorn [ Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Benefitting from Heresy...
mighty28 wrote:
After reading a post from Devin in another thread, I got to thinking about the rewards from oppositional cultures, factions, etc. He had stated he cannot use a reward that comes from the PoM. Which, is a totally valid character choice. I (hopefully) will get to play my Agamassi for the first time this weekend. As a proud worshiper of Haulis ("All Hail the Bloody Maw!"), I was expecting be in the same boat. But, I got to thinking "why not take the blessings of the faith of others?". Tactically, it makes sense to me to use an enemies resources against them. If you overcome an artillery position, you turn the cannons. Granted, Fate and spells are, essentially, infinite resources that you will not be depriving the enemy the use of, but if their blessing furthers my goals/agenda...why would I say no?

Thoughts?


Since I don't see any Haulis boons (or other Varn for that matter) coming out anytime soon for my Agamassi as well, my character's feelings is that if these 'gods' want to bestow gifts upon him, so be it. If Hurrian gives a boon for example in an adventure, Fangriss-Khah (the Agamassi in question) will certainly save it to cleave one of his holy champions in two (if the opportunity ever arises) .This character will be a guilty pleasure, indeed.
Author:  Deviknyte [ Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Benefitting from Heresy...
I was thinking about the in character point of view. Did some Tultipetian Priest bless me or the survivors of the battlefield? Would Vaerdos even notice or realize Larissa had granted him this extra luck? If this is something tangible that Vaerdos knows about or calls upon personally, he most likely would not use it. I don't think that big reward boons like this are something that characters would rationalize as fighting fire with fire.
Author:  Eric Hughes [ Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Benefitting from Heresy...
I hate to introduce mechanic's from other systems into the conversation. But back in the late 1980's there was an obscure system called Stalking the Night Fantastic from Tri Tac Systems that had a stat for "Piety". It was a number between 1-20. Unlike the rest of the ability stats which where rolled up, Piety was completely fabricated by the player's preference. Here is how it worked...

The most holy would be saint on the planet was said to have a Piety of 20. The most ardent and entrenched Atheist on the planet had a Piety of 1. Anytime a faith spell was cast the PC target rolled a d20 to see if they they believe in the power of faith affected them. This was a dual edged sword. Sure the guy with a Piety of 20 got all the good buffs. But they also where constantly being stalked by supernatural powers. The Atheist with a Piety of 1 never got buffed, but he never got possessed by demons either.

In Arcanis we don't have an equivalent ability stat. I don't advocate that we add one. But my point is that if you are going to weigh more than mechanics when accepting buffs from other churches you do so from the stand point of how strong the PC's faith in a given church is. Example, if you are actively channeling the Divine power of your own god and church every moment possible, then you shouldn't be accepting spells from other gods or especially churches. If however, you are a "dabbler" in divine casting, then I don't see the issue if you accept something from others. If your PC doesn't believe in anything at all, would your PC even notice the effect in the first place?

Bottom line, worry less about how strongly your PC dislikes the other church, and worry more about how strongly your PC LIKES his own.
Author:  Haakon_val'Ishi [ Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Benefitting from Heresy...
Eric I think it really depends on the character you are playing (I do agree with some of what you say). Cases in point: Haakon val'Ishi while born in Milandir was sent to Enpebyn ("val'Ishi Central :) ) as a young lad and considers that place home. He is a rock-hard member of the Mother Church (and probably a strong supporter of Elandre val'Assante's more "puritanical" reform efforts. Other than the Milandiric Orthodox Church, which he views as a wayward sheep destined to return to the flock, he pretty much takes a dim view of all other faiths. Now I won't ruin somebody's fun at the table by being an a**hat, and won't cause a "mission" to fail (again keeping the idea of fun for everyone in mind), he would definitely make note of who the "heretics" were at the table and turn that information over to his superiors. I'm betting you can guess which Secret Society he belongs to.... ;)

On the other hand my other character Ursula val'Holryn, who it turns out has the val'Emman bloodline and follows Nier, is far more pragmatic in her religion. She's a soldier who spent her formative years in Almeric, witnessing first hand what hard-headedness can bring. If it helps her win the fight/save the day she'll take the "buff" from whoever's willing to cast her way.
Author:  Nierite [ Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Benefitting from Heresy...
I'd love (in ARPG 2nd Ed. should one ever come out?) for there to be a version of Fame for Piety. Every time an adventure tests your faith, you gain a +1 or -1 to you roll. If you have a negative Piety, you can't cast Theurgy spells.
Author:  Deviknyte [ Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Benefitting from Heresy...
Harliquinn wrote:
Deviknyte wrote:
Just like most of the actual magic items in the campaign, I can't use my fate point because it is a PoM boon.


Not sure why you are interpreting it this way? Unless it's for RP reasons, then there's nothing I can do to help you there. There's nothing written in the cert as it stands to exempt non-PoM folks (be they Elorii, Kio, or otherwise). Also, I'm not familiar with the other magic items you mentioned (outside of many of the Vault Items) that are restricted to the PoM.

John
Mechanically? No. There is nothing stopping me from using that fate point. Even story wise there might not be anything stopping me. It all depends on the flavor of it. Is fate something characters actively use? Are they aware of it? How was that fate point given to all the players? Was there a mass prayer at the end of the day? Or is it just Larissa rewarding good karma from above? One of these thing Vaerdos wouldn't notice, the fate point would get used when fate deemed it so, but the other... There are a lot of rewards that don't have mechanical restrictions for using them. But take Greaves of the Scout for example. They have Saluwe plastered all over them for some reason. Saluwe holds a monopoly on scouting. So the light armored people who sit at my table do not have access to a +1 AR buff that any worshiper of PoM does.

In 3.X most magic items were generic and most likely crafted by arcane spell casters. All the items have story to them now, which I actually like! It just that unless a mod has new fluff for magic items given, I can only assume I can't use most of the magic items presented to me, no matter how powerful or nice they are. :/
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