In another thread we've spilled a lot of ink about the 2014 Origins BI and the rewards from it. I think that part of the conversation is wrapped up ... at least for the moment. But I also thought a lot of interesting stuff came up about BI in general that I have been digesting.

While I don't know anything about the internal thought process of Team PCI, I assume the big conventions are an excellent vehicle to introduce the world to new players. Generally I note that the Big Cons also draw a core of heavily invested players. So even if BI weren't innately cool in their own right the Big Cons would be a good place to have BI to facilitate bringing new players into the system and as a special event for the faithful.

But in the last campaign we also had a fierce debate on the effects of the. "Haves" who can afford to go to the big cons and the "have nots." And I think no one believes that someone's emotional investment in the campaign should be linked to their cash investment.

So out of this we I think we get the "balance point" of only having special events at Origins and Arcaniscon ... a reduction in the monetary & experience rewards that come out of them... and the special events won't determine the outcomes of major plot points.

We've been hashing out the issue of rewards. I think that discussion belongs in the other thread.

I wonder a little if we actually ever do draw in new players with BIs? I know I personally don't drop 8 hours at a con on an untested system. But I don't know enough to really address this point.

BUT the last point. I realize that conceptually I really dislike it. In my mind the whole point of having a BI (besides the point of just having a big combat exercise) IS to resolve some big contested plot point in the campaign. Fighting a BI with out the plot having "skin in the game" undermines the idea of BIs for me.

When I think of my favorite BIs I think of Enpyben and Solonos Mor hands down. And when I try to think about why those were my favorites what leaps out at me was that those two BIs were the ones where PCs fought on both sides as loyalists and rebels...and it was clear at least some peoplexweren't going to get the outcome they wanted. For example Enpyben or Solonos Mor either has to fall and become occupied ... or the rebels fight off the invading loyalists.

Compared to that I think most players had a lot less emotional investment in the invasion of Tultipet as a scenario. There was limited build up in the hard points and no sense in the wider campaign that Tultipet needed sorting out. In fact in talking with people the response I get anecdotally runs more toward "I thought that the dragon had already sorted them out ... are there really enough left to be a problem?"

This leaves me wondering if BIs divorced from major plot points are the way to go moving forward? Maybe we just have to offer one because it's expected. But the Vault of Larrisa was not a BI. It was a crazy shared experience delve. I suspect recasting or replacing BIs with unique one shot "explorations" would generate a lot of excitement.

Hello Eric,

The Invasion of Tultipet was mist definitely a plot point. If people came away not knowing what was gong on or why, they either didn't play the previous Hard Point or I failed in explaining the stakes in the story.

Ether way, we strive to make BIs intricate to the story line.

Perhaps, like the tournaments that have been pulled due to the uproar from the players, perhaps its time to pull the plug on BIs and have them occur once in a blue moon or not at all.

I've been giving that idea serious consideration.

I am somewhat partial to it, but I LOVED the concept of the ArcaniCon Delve. I thought it was great fun, even if it was a logistical nightmare to pull off. I liked it WAY better than any of the BI's in which I've fought (no fault of the BI, I just like this better). I agree that for a BI to really feel worthwhile, you need to be invested into it. You need adventures leading to it, you need context as to why you are fighting. If not, you are simply a soldier, not a hero. This can be fine and good fun, but when you have a stake in it you will come out of it feeling far most strongly about it.

As a player who lives far away and couldn't come to this past Origins (and likely will have to choose between ArcaniCon or Origins next year as well), I appreciate what PCI did in not giving out lavish rewards with this BI as it is something I can never get myself. I know people get a bit frustrated if they lose out on cool things, especially when others they may play with/talk to/etc DO get those fancy things. Up until now, I know BI's have been (with on exception that comes to mind) treated as Hard Points as they are part of the main story, but I suggested in a previous post that they should be treated as Soft Points instead: No more than 250 XP, higher monetary rewards vs. Story rewards. Soft points do not have to be played in order to 'get the experience', which means that non-Con players don't feel like they are missing huge chunks of essential material. The problem with this is that you really can't get the same build-up for a Soft point than you can with a 4-6 HP leadup, leading to the problem in the first paragraph.

Possible solutions:

1) Start re-issuing BI's again, at least in abridged forms for Homeplay. Con players get the full 8 hour BI, with appropriate 500 XP. Home players get the 4 hour 'abridged' version where they cover the essential story points without any special missions and 'filler' battles that may exist.

2) Keep BI/special events XP down to between 0-250. This gives an XP reward to represent their time in the trenches, but keeps the playing field of the greater campaign a bit more level. (What PCI is doing presently).

As to rewards for what you can do, Special Events (Vault of Larissa's Lament, Battle of Tultipet, the special Kickstarter tables, any special story adventures such as the assault on the Citadel of the Silence, etc) should probably not give out too much for rewards. If you give lots of gold, than you have one group who has more money than another, so can buy more things. This isn't all that big of a problem as the economy isn't robust enough to give most people a thing to DO with money. Magic items from the books are also a possibility, but if multiple people have dozens of items that can't be traded or sold, and others have none, it breaks the balance of the game. Also, magic items should be (IMHO) restricted to HP's as it gives everyone the chance to stay on the same power curve.

This really leads us with 'intangibles'. Things like the Fate point from the last BI, the +10 Stamina from the first ArcaniCon BI (Battle of Mil Takara), or even the little ghost flower from the same BI. Things which give those Heroes a temporary advantage (or none at all) in a few modules, but otherwise nothing too overpowering and ultimately self correcting. You could also have things like certed invitations for things not normally accessible to players (like an invitation which lets a human character learn to be a Tal Kanath, ignoring racial prerequisites). It gives those players an advantage, but ultimately not something that is COMPLETELY out of the reach of other players.

I am highly conflicted on the BI front.

On the one hand, I think that an even playing field for all players is a good cause, and that perceived special treatment of those who can attend conventions, or who played in the last campaign, or who can afford special offerings from the kickstart can lead to resentment in the community. I remember a subjective millennia ago when I first got involved in organized play and found people with all kinds of powerful goodies.... that I couldn't get because they were from special events/venues. It was disheartening, but obviously I still played and enjoyed myself enough to still seek out organized play options to this day.

On the other hand, it has always been my feeling that a campaign's ability to adapt to what their players do, even sometimes just a singular player (rather than table results in aggregate through response forms) is what makes campaigns truly great. The times I have seen a character do something truly amazing, or be stalwart and constant in their roleplaying over years being rewarded/punished personally (and I've seen smarmy characters who loved that they had a demon personally trying to kidnap them, as an example of a "good" punishment) are the high points of many of my gaming memories. I usually like for my characters to "push the envelope" and try to learn more than is in the books as well. I've talked about capturing a segarthian troll for magical interrogation. I suspect that will never be available in a module. And honestly, if it was made obvious in a module that you could do that, I would no longer feel unique in wanting to planning to do it, because odds are a dozen other players would do it too. Whereas, if I come across a segarthian at a BI, and work my ass of to capture him, I like that the campaign staff is there to role with the punches of my actions. Having the possibility of YOUR actions, not just the actions of the players in aggregate make a difference is hugely important in feeling attached to a campaign. So the "personal service" of the campaign is what makes it truly magical.

But these two things are diametrically opposed are they not? On one hand, I'm saying that a level of personalized service that the campaign staff can not afford to give to every player everywhere is what makes a campaign great. On the other hand, I think everyone should be treated fairly. I have no idea what the appropriate solution to this is, and I suspect if there is a "solution" announced, one way or the other I will feel vaguely disappointed.

All I can say is that currently I feel that the PCI staff is doing an excellent job of walking the tight rope. They provide a good gaming product in the modules, with the possibility of feeling "unique" at select PCI or campaign staff run events. By definition this does lead to some disparity, but I think they try to keep it flavorful rather than powerful, and I think that is the right approach.

On a different note, I agree that I think I actually enjoyed the delve more than the BI. While I understand that the BI was a major plot point, I was left feeling like the lead up to it was too fast. Oddly, once I understood why the forces were organizing to attack the city, I wished that we would have had the chance to parlay with the ultimate leader instead of fight their forces, since their ultimate end goal was in essence the same as mine...

I do agree Tultipet was an interesting/significant plot point. And the repercussions of calling back the Dragon if the PCs had failed would have been ... ahem ... interesting. If the Dragon really is concerned about the prophesies of the Destroyer then we may yet see it fly over the horizon.

But PCI has stated that BIs would not be as central to the story going forward even as they weren't going to be widely released. I don't know how I feel about that and am processing and talking. IMO the best BIs have been the ones with PCs on both sides and a lot of build up before hand. They were very central and generated a lot of passion in the player base.



As I've stated elsewhere I prefer the LARPs to the BI on the whole. But I think I'm in a minority on that position. I know a lot of people love BIs. perhaps relevant, I also thought the Vault of Larissa was the most interesting "evolution" I've seen in a shared/mass gaming experience since I saw the First Battle of Semar. That BI was so far ahead in terms of story and organization of that the other BIs I had seen and played in before that felt like I was watching evolution in action.

So on balance I personally don't think there needs to be a BI every time PCI plants its flag pole for a big event. But I'd look at other possibilities as well for large special events.

I will admit to being unhappy about the rewards from the Origins BI. But a lot of that was not knowing about it beforehand or least having some inkling. As a player I would say this past BI was good. Not the best but still good. There were interesting combats and tactical situations to deal with, choices to be made for good or ill. I imagine I will continue to play or judge at Arcanis BIs as we go forward. I would not be in favor of pulling the plug. Replacing them with say two regular mods is just not the same thing. A delve would be fun but that's a dungeon crawk and I like a good battle now and again. I do agree with the skin in the game comment though. Still we are supposed to be heroes so when the call goes out we should answer. And I do appreciate all the effort that PCI and the judges put into a BI to pull it off. Despite griping about the awards I still feel at the end of the day I got my sixteen dollars worth.

Now having said that...I still think an urban fight defending the First City could be a heck of a lot of fun...and maybe on PCI's plate. Off the top of my head I could think of a number of combat encounters/special missions that could work...but I don't want to give PCI any evil ideas.

The Arcanis BI is the single largest reason I try to make it to Origins. I understand that it might not make sense to have a battle every year, but I feel strongly that there should be some sort of special event every year. Something like the Arcanicon Delve would work of course.

I guarantee that you will lose a lot of con players if you eliminate the special events. There is a small, vocal minority doing the bulk of the complaining. This isn't to say there weren't a few kinks in this year's event, but please don't get rid of BIs simply because of some complaints. Considering that travel and accommodations probably cost me about $2000 every year, it would be difficult to justify that expense in the future if there was nothing unique for me there.

I've held off on posting as my thoughts were complicated and I haven't taken the time yet to formulate a constructive response. However, I feel the need to do so now and beg your forgiveness as I'm on my tablet. I also may sound harsher than I intend but I feel the need to speak up.

First of all, I think people need to take a step back and work on expressing themselves in a constructive method, instead of whining or having a fit that things don't work out exactly how they think it should or getting angry that someone disagrees with them. I also think that the members of this board, including those at PCI, need to get thicker skin.

The nature of message boards generally means that the people that post the most; the people that you hear from the most, are going to be the people who are unhappy, easily upset, or have some axe to grind. The folks that are happy or content aren't really going to be posting or making a ruckus. I have felt, for sometime now, that the people who are listened to are the complainers and those who bitch. That, if someone throws a large enough fit, they will get their way. Honestly, correct or incorrect the idea of this bothers me and makes me very angry. I don't want to play in a campaign where I have be concerned that someone is going to whine and the immediate response is 'Well, then maybe we shouldn't do X at all' or 'Fine, you win, lets make this major change because you are loud and therefor must be how the majority of players feel'.

People have to be aware that this board is a small slice of a campaign and when people have the amenity of the internet they are emboldened to be jerks. Now, this isn't to say that when people do complain, they don't have a right to do so our that something isn't wrong that needs to be addressed. Sometimes, what seems to be a good idea isn't - whether the idea itself is flawed, the communication, or the implementation. And that's ok. We need to work as a community on it and then move forward. I love this campaign and this world - I'm sure the rest of you feel the same way. I'd hate to let something like a few inconsiderate people ruin that.

Toni, Thank you, I really appreciate the message of your post and hope that people hear it for what it is and not blindly react to it.

How DARE you sugg...wait...no, you're good. Carry on.


*searches for the 'Like' button*