Last visit was: It is currently Fri Mar 29, 2024 2:01 am


All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 78 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Origins 2014 BI Certs
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 8:16 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:46 pm
Posts: 1353
mith wrote:
Hat wrote:
mith wrote:
<snip>
Yes and no. A lot of people couldn't afford or get the special Henry run tables that BEAST participated in. The experience of being able to do something that those who couldn't be there is part of the reward. Arguably the rest of the reward for participating should be somehow connected to the event.


The special tables aren't really part of this discussion, as it is entirely focused on the BI. However, it was suggested going into the special table that we would not receive XP. In fact, most of us assumed going in that we wouldn't get *anything* at all due to the scope of the story. All we asked for was a chance to learn new lore and have an affect on the world we live in. Any items, blessings, curses, xp, whatever...well that would just be gravy. For my $300 to sit at the table, I got exactly what I was expecting and hoping for - and I haven't even gotten a cert yet. The BI is an entirely different animal. Any attempt to compare the two is akin to comparing apples to 747's.


For $12 or whatever it was for the BI you got a one-time adventure, written by the staff instead of Henry that only 62 people will ever get to play rather than 6. Those 62 people got to have an effect on the world through the results of the BI as your 6 did in your special table. Your story was specifically tailored to your group which is what being a big supporter of the kickstarter bought you. That again is a step up from just supporting PCI at a con. You got the luxury version to be sure, but I'm lost at how the two are as different as apples and airplanes.

mith wrote:
<snip>The key thing with my sniper is you have to see him to hit him (or use AoE where you think he is). His hide is typically in the mid to high 30's. So it works GREAT. But... When the GM nerfs/disallows something specifically in the rules that completely gimps my character's ability to hide, THEN I have a serious disconnect. Tick 1 (first Tick 1) of the round at the BI with all of those bridges and groups of crossbowmen my character took 4 wounds (and was down), not a single one because of a crit...all because Pedro said I couldn't use one of my Talents and hide.


I would respectfully point out that the GM you're referencing wrote the rules and that perhaps it's not as clearly in the rules as you expect. There are a lot of combats where there isn't time to buff or in your case hide. If you're downed prior to being able to do your schtick I'm not sure that's much different than someone else not getting off their critical spell or whatever.

mith wrote:
Ask Flynn, my sniper is a beast (no pun intended), but when you have an entire squad of minions targeting a single character, something's going to give. Keep in mind that unlike every other Ss'ressen, Ghost Scale get almost no AR. Additionally, to use all of my talents which help me hide - you know, those talents Pedro said I couldn't use - require that the character not where ANY ARMOR. So the entire BI I was double whammied, which was just awesome. Replace those talents I couldn't use with defenses and sure, I wouldn't be complaining about 'gritty rules' either. As for my second character, he's a lover, not a fighter - which is why his ass stays out of BIs.


Obviously this is something to get clarified in the rules prior to the next BI at a minimum so that you and any other player with a similar build knows what to expect. Most races get no AR. The lack of armor on top of that is certainly painful, but most characters were probably looking at a total of 3 to 4 AR with some less or some more. I expect that if the rules work out other than as you expect you'd have the flexibility to rework the build some. Given what you've described though, the build is hyper specialized though, and any such build has issues if the schtick doesn't play. Incorporeal attacks against really heavy AR would be another example.

Hat wrote:
I've played or run 3 mods since Origins. All using the massive damage rules. Wounds have happened on rare occasion, but they certainly haven't threatened the lives of the characters. There may be specific mods that are more deadly, but as a general rule I don't think this is as much of a concern as most people think. For reference my character has defenses of 20/18/19 at 2.2 with Fortitude being my weakest.

And in how many of those modules have you had entire squads of minions unloading with their best attacks on a single character?


Even if they had, the damage they do on average doesn't wound. That was more my point. The fights in BIs are going to be tougher with harder and more hard hitting opponents. Eric has already mentioned that they will reconsider the amount of crossbowmen in the future so that wounds taken in a BI feel like they mean more - against a true boss, not against minions. That message has been heard and responded to.

I can only think of one mod off the top of my head that had more than 2 groups of minions in it and they weren't anywhere near as heavily armed.

I appreciate your frustration. BEAST from what you've described is a very focused table built mostly around killing things. The more specialized the group or character, the harder it is to find that reason to have them involved in any specific mod. As someone who's put together predominantly Legion tables, I get it.

Both Eric and Tony have already responded with constructive comments and efforts to use the feedback that's been provided and make the experience better overall. I think they should certainly be given credit for their responsiveness and the work they've put in.

If you end up feeling that you'd rather do specials in another system at a Con because they're not up BEASTs alley or whatnot, they'd understand. The goal with gaming is for everyone to have fun. If it isn't then something needs to change. Often there are things that need to give on both sides of the table.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Origins 2014 BI Certs
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:07 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:30 pm
Posts: 194
:? :roll:
Everyone thinks BEAST is some massive killing machine... We aren't and that isn't our focus.

Regardless.

My bottom line is when I sit at a table for 10hrs and get my ass kicked (I didn't say it wasn't fun, never once have I said I didn't have fun), I expect more payout than almost negligible rewards.

Honestly, I don't understand this desire/need for everything to 'be fair' or 'equal' between those that attend cons and those that don't. By that logic, why not compensate everyone that didn't get in the Delve last year? It was space limited...if you weren't fast enough in registration you were SOL... Life isn't fair, life isn't equal...

I didn't get a single pledge level in the Kickstarter by myself (I got in on a special table only because a friend camped it), where as I know of one person that got half a dozen things. Not only was he fast enough on the computer, but had enough disposable income to buy some pretty sweet special things that 1) I wanted and 2) now will never get to play in the campaign. You'll notice not once have I ever complained about that (and I'm still not).

Why hamstring those that CAN make it to a con or spent a shit-ton on Kickstarter, just because others could not? I had to choose between Origins and GenCon this year, I chose Origins. As a result, I didn't get to play the mods original slated for Origins (due to circumstances beyond anyone's control, no fault to be had for anyone) and now likely won't be able to play them until next summer (unless I play them online). *shrug* Such is life.

A lot of us don't live anywhere near a Harvester, nor an author... As such we never get to playtest and have to wait several extra months before we get to play new releases - where's the compensation for that? Those that get to playtest and have active Harvesters are likely to be up to several ranks higher than the rest.

The reductio ad absurdum to this "everything should be faaaaair" is why bother with characters and dice, why not just sit around a table and listen to Henry tell his story? I'm ALL for storytime with Uncle Henry, he weaves an amazing tale, but then lets not put on these airs of it being a game any longer.


Now you want brass tacks? Based on the XP break down in most modules and compared against how much we fight in a typical BI, every single character should get at least a full rank out of it. Granted, this is based on memory of the xp charts for mods I ran just before Origins, so the outcome could be flawed, so I challenge someone to do a statistical analysis of XP vs Mobs fought and present what xp a BI should give. My bet, it's should be far more than the 500xp we usually get.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Origins 2014 BI Certs
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:15 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
Posts: 1037
mith wrote:
Nierite wrote:
Well, I haven't seen the BI cert, so I don't really know what this Fate Point can do.

With very, very minor differences, it's exactly the same as any other Fate Point any GM can give out at any table for any reason. It's a one shot - you get an extra fate point, once, after you use it for any reason, it's gone for good.


It is one use but they are not minor differences. It can be used as a normal Fate (very poor choice unless you are going to die without it) or you can do one of the following:
  • Cast a spell that you know with two Adaptations with no adjustment to CTN, speed, or strain
  • Add one of the following Limiting Conditions to a physical attack: Blinded, Deafened, Stunned, or Prone
  • Prevent a wound from massive damage (take 60 Stamina? hurts but no wound)

_________________
Steve Wilcoxon
Ss'kethis - Expert Holy Champion of the Fire Dragon 3.1
G'hyu'thyh Sungha - Martial Templar of Illiir 1.7
Eryk Bauer - Martial Awakened 1.2


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Origins 2014 BI Certs
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:27 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
Posts: 1037
mith wrote:
Honestly, I don't understand this desire/need for everything to 'be fair' or 'equal' between those that attend cons and those that don't. By that logic, why not compensate everyone that didn't get in the Delve last year? It was space limited...if you weren't fast enough in registration you were SOL... Life isn't fair, life isn't equal...


Because if people who don't attend cons feel it is unfair, they will likely stop playing Arcanis (not just stop playing the living campaign). Life isn't fair but a game should be.

mith wrote:
I didn't get a single pledge level in the Kickstarter by myself (I got in on a special table only because a friend camped it), where as I know of one person that got half a dozen things. Not only was he fast enough on the computer, but had enough disposable income to buy some pretty sweet special things that 1) I wanted and 2) now will never get to play in the campaign. You'll notice not once have I ever complained about that (and I'm still not).


This did bother me a lot as I would have loved to get an Agamasi (or possibly val'Sosa). However, it was impossible for me to login to Kickstarter until an hour after it went live when all of the special slots were already gone (not even just the ones I wanted). As I said at the time, I felt these were far too limited (I've never seen any other Kickstarter with an exclusive tier limited to single digits (especially low single digits) unless it was in the $1000s (or $10,000s)).

mith wrote:
Why hamstring those that CAN make it to a con or spent a shit-ton on Kickstarter, just because others could not? I had to choose between Origins and GenCon this year, I chose Origins. As a result, I didn't get to play the mods original slated for Origins (due to circumstances beyond anyone's control, no fault to be had for anyone) and now likely won't be able to play them until next summer (unless I play them online). *shrug* Such is life.


They aren't hamstringing those that can make it to the con. They are providing story and non-xp rewards for playing in the con exclusive events (if you feel like they are sufficient or not is a different argument). They are simply trying to keep the tiers of the characters nearer to each other. Look at it this way - say you attend every con over the next few years and end up a full tier ahead of non-con-goers, will you really have any fun playing mods that are written for a full tier lower than you? Con-goers are important to Arcanis but they are a minority of the players (or at least they'd better be if PCI is going to stay a going concern).

mith wrote:
Now you want brass tacks? Based on the XP break down in most modules and compared against how much we fight in a typical BI, every single character should get at least a full rank out of it. Granted, this is based on memory of the xp charts for mods I ran just before Origins, so the outcome could be flawed, so I challenge someone to do a statistical analysis of XP vs Mobs fought and present what xp a BI should give. My bet, it's should be far more than the 500xp we usually get.


I've been running mods for a local group and I would disagree. In most of the mods I've run recently, the combats give a minority of the xp - most of the xp is for "did they find this?", "did they question this?", "did they persuade someone of this?", etc. By my guesstimating, BIs calculated in a similar fashion would only be worth 250-500.

_________________
Steve Wilcoxon
Ss'kethis - Expert Holy Champion of the Fire Dragon 3.1
G'hyu'thyh Sungha - Martial Templar of Illiir 1.7
Eryk Bauer - Martial Awakened 1.2


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Origins 2014 BI Certs
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:35 pm 

Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:12 pm
Posts: 609
Just like most of the actual magic items in the campaign, I can't use my fate point because it is a PoM boon.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Origins 2014 BI Certs
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:30 pm
Posts: 194
wilcoxon wrote:
mith wrote:
Honestly, I don't understand this desire/need for everything to 'be fair' or 'equal' between those that attend cons and those that don't. By that logic, why not compensate everyone that didn't get in the Delve last year? It was space limited...if you weren't fast enough in registration you were SOL... Life isn't fair, life isn't equal...

Because if people who don't attend cons feel it is unfair, they will likely stop playing Arcanis (not just stop playing the living campaign). Life isn't fair but a game should be.

I agree, it should be fair... But penalizing players that go to cons, just because they went to the con, is not fair. The BI is, effectively, a two round module but gave the same amount of xp as a 2hr intro module... Exactly how is that "fair" for anyone that sat at the BI?

Quote:
They are simply trying to keep the tiers of the characters nearer to each other.

If a character has played more modules, experienced more in their life, they should be higher level. If the campaign is attempting to artificially restrict that, why bother tracking xp? Just say "everyone gains one rank a month...new characters, well it's been X months since the start of the campaign, so you start with X advancements".

Quote:
Look at it this way - say you attend every con over the next few years and end up a full tier ahead of non-con-goers, will you really have any fun playing mods that are written for a full tier lower than you?

I'm going to be an ass right here - "oh NO! a whole tier you say!? the horror!!". Okay, enough of being an ass. So far the most out-of-sync characters could be based only on con exclusives is 2,000xp (I'm completely discounting LARP xp). 500 for 'A Peaceful Interlude', 750 (max) for the Delve, 650 from the Vault of Larissa, and 100 for this year's BI. That is 2 ranks, which is FAR from 1 tier, in fact it's 80% from a full tier.

Quote:
Con-goers are important to Arcanis but they are a minority of the players (or at least they'd better be if PCI is going to stay a going concern).

No one suggested otherwise, but they also are not MORE important than those that do go to cons.

Quote:
I've been running mods for a local group and I would disagree. In most of the mods I've run recently, the combats give a minority of the xp - most of the xp is for "did they find this?", "did they question this?", "did they persuade someone of this?", etc. By my guesstimating, BIs calculated in a similar fashion would only be worth 250-500.

Again, guesstimating...which is just what I did. Given the very large disparity between the combat encounter levels within standard modules and those in any given round of a BI, I (again guesstimating) believe you are vastly undercalculating. Even so, I'd take the 500xp, at least that would be on par with every other two round adventure and BI.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Origins 2014 BI Certs
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:18 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:30 pm
Posts: 194
wilcoxon wrote:
It is one use but they are not minor differences. It can be used as a normal Fate (very poor choice unless you are going to die without it) or you can do one of the following:
  • Cast a spell that you know with two Adaptations with no adjustment to CTN, speed, or strain
  • Add one of the following Limiting Conditions to a physical attack: Blinded, Deafened, Stunned, or Prone
  • Prevent a wound from massive damage (take 60 Stamina? hurts but no wound)


#1 - very useful to casters, I agree
#2 - why bother? spend a fate point to gain access to a weapon trick/technique that does the same thing. Nothing special here...
#3 - take the wound, no big deal...spend a fate point to not get vanquished by wounds as is already written in the rules

#1 is the only thing that makes me say 'wow, that's neat' because it isn't already covered by existing uses of fate points. And even then it's only useful to casters. Sure, #2 allows you to stack a condition without having to use the trick/technique (so you can still combine two others) but it's STILL a one shot. It's like giving out a charged item with 1 charge that cannot be recharged, whose effect is pretty 'meh' anyway.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Origins 2014 BI Certs
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:33 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
Posts: 1037
mith wrote:
Quote:
Look at it this way - say you attend every con over the next few years and end up a full tier ahead of non-con-goers, will you really have any fun playing mods that are written for a full tier lower than you?

I'm going to be an ass right here - "oh NO! a whole tier you say!? the horror!!". Okay, enough of being an ass. So far the most out-of-sync characters could be based only on con exclusives is 2,000xp (I'm completely discounting LARP xp). 500 for 'A Peaceful Interlude', 750 (max) for the Delve, 650 from the Vault of Larissa, and 100 for this year's BI. That is 2 ranks, which is FAR from 1 tier, in fact it's 80% from a full tier.


Okay. Now I'm bothered. The Vault gave 650 xp and very interesting (powerful but cursed) items? I had assumed the Vault similarly gave very low xp. I do strongly think that either the Vault should be adjusted down to match the new standard or the BI should be adjusted upwards (and ideally give some more interesting non-xp rewards). It seems very odd that the two con exclusive within 3 (4?) months of each other would give such drastically different rewards.

_________________
Steve Wilcoxon
Ss'kethis - Expert Holy Champion of the Fire Dragon 3.1
G'hyu'thyh Sungha - Martial Templar of Illiir 1.7
Eryk Bauer - Martial Awakened 1.2


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Origins 2014 BI Certs
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:35 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
Posts: 1037
mith wrote:
wilcoxon wrote:
It is one use but they are not minor differences. It can be used as a normal Fate (very poor choice unless you are going to die without it) or you can do one of the following:
  • Cast a spell that you know with two Adaptations with no adjustment to CTN, speed, or strain
  • Add one of the following Limiting Conditions to a physical attack: Blinded, Deafened, Stunned, or Prone
  • Prevent a wound from massive damage (take 60 Stamina? hurts but no wound)


#1 - very useful to casters, I agree
#2 - why bother? spend a fate point to gain access to a weapon trick/technique that does the same thing. Nothing special here...
#3 - take the wound, no big deal...spend a fate point to not get vanquished by wounds as is already written in the rules

#1 is the only thing that makes me say 'wow, that's neat' because it isn't already covered by existing uses of fate points. And even then it's only useful to casters. Sure, #2 allows you to stack a condition without having to use the trick/technique (so you can still combine two others) but it's STILL a one shot. It's like giving out a charged item with 1 charge that cannot be recharged, whose effect is pretty 'meh' anyway.


I agree #1 is the most obvious "wow" option and that #2 is underwhelming but I think you're underestimating the usefulness of not taking a wound in the first place (particularly consider wound healing is very limited until tier 3).

_________________
Steve Wilcoxon
Ss'kethis - Expert Holy Champion of the Fire Dragon 3.1
G'hyu'thyh Sungha - Martial Templar of Illiir 1.7
Eryk Bauer - Martial Awakened 1.2


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Origins 2014 BI Certs
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:46 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
Posts: 842
Location: Michigan
Wow. I'm just amazed at the... vehemence of some of the other players about how they have been treated.

As someone who played the BI, and it was his first BI ever, it was very fun to be under so much pressure in such a deadly situation. I thought it was very well done. I agree with the idea of limiting the impact of "special" events in the campaign as well, so I am not against the idea of the 100xp for interactives. I liked the idea someone proposed of making up for the lack of x.p. with other very temporary or one shot rewards (like was done with the fate point).

But being new, I went in expecting the reward to be similar to Arcanicon's interactive. I'm new enough to the campaign to not know whether the reward level from that was anomalous. Because of a particular effect on my main character, I really want to advance that character as fast as possible per module. Having seen the X.P. from Arcanicon, I specifically played him in the interactive, despite him not being a big combat kinda guy, to get the high X.P. of a two round event. I am not disappointed with the results/rewards of the BI. I am disappointed that the planned reward balance changed at a doctrinal level without informing the players beforehand.

Personally, I'm fine with being a man and sucking it up, because these things happen. I will continue to play no matter what, as long as the story remains good. I'm surprised that the staff is changing the BI rewards in response to the player comments (mine included). On one level that really impresses me; that they listen and react. On the other, it makes me feel like a whiny little git. :) So now I'm emotionally torn that I may be getting more of the reward I was expecting, but getting it makes me feel like a dick for complaining. So now I don't know what to think. :)

_________________
AKA Kavaris, awakened "Human" from the Hinterlands, psionic transmutation specialist, adventurer, and no one important


Last edited by toodeep on Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 78 posts ]  Moderators: james.zwiers, PCI Eric, PCI_StatMonkey Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Theme created StylerBB.net & kodeki