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 Post subject: Re: Say Hello to my little friend....
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 5:54 pm 
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You may want to re-read the "Helpless" rules.

Attacking them does not reduce them to 0 stamina; it inflicts an automatic *wound* in addition to normal damage.

Not that overpowering for creatures with more than one wound.

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 Post subject: Re: Say Hello to my little friend....
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:06 pm 
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Southernskies wrote:
You may want to re-read the "Helpless" rules.

Attacking them does not reduce them to 0 stamina; it inflicts an automatic *wound* in addition to normal damage.

Not that overpowering for creatures with more than one wound.


Keep reading: The attacker may, at his option, elect to withhold Wound damage inflicted by a melee attack against a Helpless creature to reduce its Stamina to 0.

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 Post subject: Re: Say Hello to my little friend....
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:11 pm 
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As the friend that Josh is referring to in this post. I want to say that i use the spell only in dire circumstances as it is very over powered. (Minus the first time i used the spell just to show how bad it was... :twisted: )

I am in favor of seeing the spell changed, it is much too powerful especially at the tier it is available at. With my build my passive caster stat is 28 so i have no issues casting the spell. I am interested to see how folks will address it. I have my own idea which i will post later.

Anyways the spell results in limiting condition: Helpless, which is defined as from page 318 of the Arcanis Main Book (Please take note of the very last line if you don't believe it can reduce you to 0 Stamina.):

Helpless:
A Helpless creature cannot defend itself, cannot
act, and is typically prone unless otherwise propped up.
Such a creature is completely at the mercy of the environment
and the actions of others. Helpless characters
have an Avoidance of 11. Successful melee attacks
against Helpless characters are automatically Critical
Successes. The attacker may, at his option,
elect to withhold Wound damage inflicted
by a melee attack against a Helpless creature
to reduce its Stamina to 0.

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Primary: Alessia Val'Mehan, Sorcerer Priestess of Sarish


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 Post subject: Re: Say Hello to my little friend....
PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:51 am 

Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:19 am
Posts: 147
I think the spell should render them helpless but immune to all damage like the bury spell. To me, if you're hardening water to basically the degree of steel, it should be equally impervious.

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 Post subject: Re: Say Hello to my little friend....
PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:54 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:36 am
Posts: 1554
And I am intentionally performing thread necromancy on this thread because this is an issue that has never been addressed, and has seen a lot more use of late.

#1 I'd like to point out it take a melee attack to take someone out, more than a few people just glossed over that.

#2 That being said I've realize that psions and only psions have a lot more facility in dealing with this condition, as they can continue to cast while imobilized (Ward of shielding and advantageous positioning come to mind, as well does unravel)

#3 If i was running a character without the psion options, I'd probably start walking away from the table when these tactis are used, mainly because they just arent any fun to most players

#4 the suggested solution is in the first message, and is in line with the intent of the spell as I read it, and allows for other similar effects to still be deady.

#5 even taking #4 a step futher, I think we should take that text out of helpless because its really a coup de grace, and add an interuptable maneuver called coup de grace that uses those rules.

Rules to move out into its own maneuver
Quote:
The attacker may, at his option, select to withhold Wound damage inflicted
by a melee attack against a Helpless creature to reduce its Stamina to 0.

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Oswald val'Inares V, The Seeker of the Val'Inares
Harvester Lord of the Eastern Fields of Iowa


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 Post subject: Re: Say Hello to my little friend....
PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 5:43 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:46 pm
Posts: 1353
This was something my character got hit with at Arcanicon. In less than 3 ticks with the spell cast and the action of 1 minion I went from 50+ stamina AR between 4 and 6 to 0. I wasn't happy but not too upset. I had a really good table and was less concerned about dying because of it.

I agree though that the spell as written is overpowered. I think simply removing the option to drop someone to 0 stamina should be removed or changed. Perhaps giving the attack max normal damage without exploding dice?

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: Say Hello to my little friend....
PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 6:09 pm 
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Location: Central Alberta
I'd prefer seeing it changed from Helpless to Pined as per grapple, but if the Heroes can do it I 100% agree enemies should too.

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 Post subject: Re: Say Hello to my little friend....
PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:19 pm 
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Gaining the "Helpless" condition is brutal to play and should not be seen before at least Tier 4.

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LA:5E; Magdelene of Ostermann, Dark-kin Courtesan Rog3(Bard)/HC2 (future twilight warrior)
LRC:OP; Seraphina "Flowerchild" Amakiir, Skill Hero


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 Post subject: Re: Say Hello to my little friend....
PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 9:16 am 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:36 am
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Tier 4 ... I think somewhere I compared other similar spells and and came up with Bury as something close in effect to the adapted solidify, and Yeah that is a T4 spell, and still not as good.

Helpless is pretty rediculous for a condition I'm still pushing to seperate that auto kill cheese out of it and into a coup de grace maneuver.

I was under the impression that auto kill spells were not supposed to be in this game?

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Oswald val'Inares V, The Seeker of the Val'Inares
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 Post subject: Re: Say Hello to my little friend....
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:09 pm 
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Ok i have a pretty simple solution to this spell to make it not so heavy handed. Make it Blood spell Sarishian only!

Ok i am kidding... kinda ;)


One thing we could do to modify the spell would be to change the effect to:

Adaptation: Increase the CTN by 6 to attempt to solidify
the water within a living being. The spells type changes to
Sustained with a Speed of 4(+6)/3, which attacks the Target’s
Discipline. If successful, the Target pace is reduced by half. Any action the target takes once affected is subject to an additional 3 speed modifier. Upon successfully sustaining the effect the Target is held Helpless. Any damage dealt to the Target automatically ends the spell.

My two cents.

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Primary: Alessia Val'Mehan, Sorcerer Priestess of Sarish


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