That helps a little bit but, to me, does not fix the problem. Something needs to be changed about the spell causing Helpless or Helpless allowing insta-"kill". The best solution I've seen was SamhainIA's idea to create a separate lengthy coup-de-grace maneuver. The other solution I can think of is to alter the spell slightly so that the target is Helpless in all ways except if attacked is not considered Helpless (and any damage still breaks the spell).

Hello,

I agree this needs to get fixed one way or the other.

After speaking with Pete, we're leaning towards changing the effect of helpless from an instant kill to just making it a Critical hit. After the fact, the spell is dispelled.

I'm sure Pete will post as soon as he's able with a definitive answer.

I also have another view on this spell which recently came to light... Early on in tier two i considered the spell grossly over powered. However in later tier two events when facing tier 3 opponents i have noticed their damage output is quite high and i tend to get hit for 30 to 40+ points of Sta damage in a single hit... with 66 Sta i might as well be helpless if two guys target me i can be dropped in a single round especially if i roll poorly in initiative.

I have also noticed my companions in melee doing similar damage which has led me to the conclusion that this spell isn't that out of scope for a tier 3 spell as it is written. Sta don't go up very fast in this system while damage seems to creep up faster... higher tier's i think are going to be quite more deadly.

Thank you Henry!

I'm happy that this change is being considered.

As I mentioned above, I personally think the easiest 'fix' for this is to change 'Helpless' to 'Pinned' or 'Grappled.' This is functionally the same effect, only the target cannot attack or reverse, only escape. The attacker can Punish at range, which still means it is a highly effective spell without it being an instant game-over.

Cody that addresses one problem (the solidify spell) but not the underlying problem of "Helpless condition is an easy instakill"

This is the part I dont get. I must truly suck at character building, because with my raging Agamassi wielding a fine weapon, i do 13 on average (18 once I get Mighty Swing). While judging, people are often throwing these numbers at me and it baffles my baby little mind. (oh...and they seem too be doing it every 4-6 ticks). When stat writing, if I write in a Speed 7 weapon on a Gargantuan creature with Powerful Attack and Mighty Swing....that would do 2d8(Might)+11 (assuming Fine weapon). With a 2d10 Might, that gives 31 damage on Average...as a Speed 8 attack. And yet, Bob the Nierite with a greatsword tells me he is getting 30-40 with a d10 weapon and (at most) a d12 Might.

My Nierite can Smite for d10(Mi)+d6(Ch)+5 (Mighty Swing)+3 (Bloodline)+2 (Exceptional Fervidite). This means that using my most powerful attack I average 29 damage for a single attack in a Scene. My 'normal' damage averages 18 every 6(2) ticks.

The highest dpt I've seen was a huge gnome at ArcaniCon who was attacking unarmed for (iirc) 2d6(attrib)+d8+d4+8 every 3 ticks plus poison damage. I have no idea how he got the +8. I know he did have a magic item, talents, and spells/abilities (iron armbands or something like that and a spell/ability that gave him poisoned thorns on his body and I'm not sure what else).

The best I've been able to figure out for Ss'kethis is 2d12+d10+7 every (other) 8 ticks (Mighty Swing/Vital Strike, exceptional Tralian Hammer) plus Smite once per scene but that requires tier 3 for the second d12.

Regardless of the damage output, the build is illegal. Only human, ss'ressen and dark-kin can take the Huge talent.

I've done the math and neither my great trident wielder or two weapon fighter comes close to the damage output mentioned here.

I can say that were someone throwing that kind of damage at me at a table, I'd ask to know how. At a minimum I want to be educated. There's also a chance that there's a misunderstanding. You don't get both smite infidel dice and forward stance dice for example as they're both talent sourced for stacking purposes.

I don't have a problem with people being effective as long as it's legal. Which may in turn point out a loophole or issue that needs to be addressed, but that's a separate question.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul