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Ranged attacks that fall under other/corner cases
http://forums.paradigmconcepts.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=994		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  archangel [ Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Ranged attacks that fall under other/corner cases
So the talk about ranged attacks into melee in the errata sub-forum has me thinking about which of the 2 talents for reducing penalties applies in certain cases: Spells that use the ranged skill and talents that have an attack roll.

For spells the ones that jumped to mind were Javelin of Lightning & Lightning Armor's ranged attack.

I'd lean toward them using Precise Aim because they are effectively weapons that are created by spells. This is probably the case for all spells that end up using ranged instead of arcanum for the attack roll, but I have only had time to do a cursory glance.

Now for talents that have an attack Such as Our Goddess' Righteous Gaze. That require a ranged attack roll. I would have to assume as a ranged attack it would suffer -4 into melee and that one Precise Aim should apply as well, it is using an appropriate skill.

All of that said in looking for these cases I came across a few bloodline talents that seem to need errata for the simple fact that they are attribute rolls vs a defense. These will quickly enter the realm of being impossible to actually succeed.
The ones that I saw that are attribute vs defense are: As we suffer so shall they, The Crushing waves, Redeem what is his, Touch of Pleasure, Hurrian's Wrath, and The Thunderer's Gift.

As we suffer so shall they- this is a very powerful effect and while I don't think it should stay just an attribute roll I also don't think it should be easy. Perhaps just add bloodrank as a modifier as there are a few that do this.

The Crushing Waves- included because it was an attribute roll, but this should be fine as it adds double bloodrank to the roll so it should stay with a reasonable if difficult chance at hitting.

The other 4 are attribute vs defense with no added bonuses. I think they should at least get bloodrank added as a bonus or make them a skill (attribute) roll vs the defense. I think they will otherwise be impossible to hit once defenses get above the low 20s.

The roll of 2d10 + 1dX where X for most characters will be a d8 or d10 leaves the character realistically expecting to hit a 15-17 and something in the low 20s with a good bit of luck. So while yes a character using one of these talents could hit a 28 or 30 depending on their attribute as it is that is also totally unrealistic and out of balance with other similar talents that get to use skills instead.
Author:  wilcoxon [ Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ranged attacks that fall under other/corner cases
I hadn't noticed those but I'd agree. If some bloodline powers use an attribute roll without bonus, they need to be changed. Personally, I'd say either BR*2 (or possibly BR - can't remember if all of them are x2 or not) as the bonus (as that matches a lot of other bloodline powers).
Author:  PCI_StatMonkey [ Thu Mar 20, 2014 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ranged attacks that fall under other/corner cases
wilcoxon wrote:
I hadn't noticed those but I'd agree. If some bloodline powers use an attribute roll without bonus, they need to be changed. Personally, I'd say either BR*2 (or possibly BR - can't remember if all of them are x2 or not) as the bonus (as that matches a lot of other bloodline powers).


care to save me some time and list them?
Author:  Astroliar [ Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ranged attacks that fall under other/corner cases
*chuckle*

Of course, I comment separately on Bloodline powers (Elorii and Val) that have these examples, and Pedro responses here as I do so. There are a good number of them Pedro - I listed one, but I know I saw at least a half-dozen to a dozen examples, but can attempt to get you a list. Can see my post for some examples.
Author:  Nierite [ Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ranged attacks that fall under other/corner cases
ie: Crushing Wave (val'Ossan) = Resolve Action Skill Roll vs. Fort
Author:  Astroliar [ Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ranged attacks that fall under other/corner cases
Here are the ones I could find:

Elorii
Bloodline of Life, Tier II: Resolve Attribute Roll
Bloodline of Water, Tier II: Resolve Attribute Roll

Val
val'Inares - As We Suffer, So Shall They [Tier IV]: Resolve Attribute Roll
val'Ossan - The Crushing Waves [Tier II]: Resolve Attribute Roll
val'Ossan - Redeem What is His [Tier V]: Resolve Attribute Roll
val'Sheem - Touch of Pleasure [Tier Iv]: Charisma Attribute Roll
val'Tensen - Hurrian's Wrath [Tier II]: Charisma Attribute Roll
val'Tensen - The Thunderer's Gift [Tier III]: Charisma Attribute Roll

I may have missed some, or there may be more...
Author:  archangel [ Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ranged attacks that fall under other/corner cases
Astroliar wrote:
Here are the ones I could find:

Elorii
Bloodline of Life, Tier II: Resolve Attribute Roll
Bloodline of Water, Tier II: Resolve Attribute Roll

Val
val'Inares - As We Suffer, So Shall They [Tier IV]: Resolve Attribute Roll
val'Ossan - The Crushing Waves [Tier II]: Resolve Attribute Roll
val'Ossan - Redeem What is His [Tier V]: Resolve Attribute Roll
val'Sheem - Touch of Pleasure [Tier Iv]: Charisma Attribute Roll
val'Tensen - Hurrian's Wrath [Tier II]: Charisma Attribute Roll
val'Tensen - The Thunderer's Gift [Tier III]: Charisma Attribute Roll

I may have missed some, or there may be more...

This looks mostly comprehensive. I'll add "Brother, Feed Elsewhere","My Lord's Domain is Mine", but these are in the players favor ie monster uses attribute vs the player's defense. For thoroughness sake i checked, instances in CoH, FiM 1 & 2, or Rising Phoenix that use attribute action rolls vs a defense. (PDFs and a reader with a search function makes this a whole lot easier.)
Author:  PCI_StatMonkey [ Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ranged attacks that fall under other/corner cases
Astroliar wrote:
*chuckle*

Of course, I comment separately on Bloodline powers (Elorii and Val) that have these examples, and Pedro responses here as I do so. There are a good number of them Pedro - I listed one, but I know I saw at least a half-dozen to a dozen examples, but can attempt to get you a list. Can see my post for some examples.


Elorii powers were meant to feel completely different then Val bloodline powers

I see what you mean, I'm going to have to go though them all at some point and make some adjustments..

for the Val the roll will stay the same but grant a +2 bonus / Blood Rank.
Author:  Astroliar [ Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ranged attacks that fall under other/corner cases
Totally understand the desire for a difference between the Elorii and Val powers, though I think we are on the same page now - it's more about the mechanics/balance of some of the talents compared to other ones. Glad to see they will be getting a look/revision, at some point in the future.
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