Two cents time:

1) Weapon proficiency's not that important. You'll choose one weapon to care about, the skill it needs, and frack the rest. You'll choose a side in the Un/Balanced decision, and while you might deviate from it in that category, you'll probably never need both nor want to for wanting not to waste points.

One things I credit 4th ed. D&D with is the Simple/Martial/Exotic mechanical separation. Simple weapons, the category for casters, are weak. Martial are simply better. For a feat you can buy access to Exotic, which are almost exactly a linear improvement from Martial. From the start the warrior classes iare carrying a harder hitting die and for whatever comes or goes that stays. It also helps that a basic division was that casters had their dice set by the abilities, and that warriors had their directly derived by their choice of artillery.

In comparison LoA gives you access to everything, and it's all about the same with some variation in tricks. If I'm packing a short sword because Cadic likes it that way, but Throw The Blade makes me sneeze I'm all of a talent away from packing a bastard sword instead -or to instead buy Mighty Blow with the short sword. Mechanically the speed/die size tradeoff's the same, the skill's the same, and now you've got the trick you want. Cadic will learn to live with your choice.

2) Armor selection is overrated. Same kind of situation. Choose an armor type, and build with it. AR's not much better then having none at all, and eating a bunch of bulk that hauls you down into "easy target" Avoidance range compensates for the extra protection. IMexp AR matters when you're swimming in minions 'til you eat that exploding stat die and then you don't feel so good about in front with the teeth and the talons.

Armor's harder to get access to if you want to be a Priest in Plate but, again, it balances out. Conceptually it's a problem, but it effect it's tolerable. And of course the big ha-ha in that the blasters are in the back so that the swarming scum chew through the piles of plate and pain first. Yeah the -4 for targeting into melee hurts, but you'll adapt. Specifically, you'll adapt into a blast that'll not give two shirts or a hoot for that penalty because it can place itself just right. Or use Precise Shot, whatever.

Bulk bothers me a little. Armor's balanced by access and by weight and by cost but why also Bulk? I wonder if it's not this perverse mix of logic, like Bulk makes sense because armor is encumbering and a little awkward so that should be mechanically consequential ...but using Body of the Warrior's free because, duh, it's your corporeal components. Why would wearing the improved, buffer version of You be any worse than normal? Or just forgoing AR for max Avoidance, hello Masterful Defense my old foe, and maybe also carrying a shield?
Hey, I hate Common Sense for it's hypocrisy. Does a thing work mechanically? "Reality" is fungible, but unaddressed problems are forever.

My buns are also entirely burned that I can't get a 0 Bulk for any amount of money or talents, , but that could just be an issue of preference.

I was really hoping I was wrong, but best I can tell it is like it's always been. Casters get to do everything and maybe be worse at some of it, but the Martial will always be fighting with the clock swapping weapons and juggling ammo and saving up for Flowing Sand so would everyone please take a number and stand in neat line?

I agree with Paul.

Martials are limited in doing any rules-based things outside of combat, especially ones without any casting ability. I personally strife at this for character development and role playing. I've not thought about solutions but this is a good conversation to have.

My personal concern is that Martials should have a bit more to flesh them out beyond fighting/physical skills. They should be more than athletes and warriors but currently that is difficult to do, at best.

And this is my experience thus far, having an initial character that is a non-casting Martial closing in on tier 2.7.

Interesting thread.

Isn't this 'fleshing out' what backgrounds and paths are for? You can also take "Skill Talents" for boosts to non-combat skills.

There are 4 mechanical things in the game basically:
1) Skills
2) Spells
3) Combat Maneuvers
4) Talents

Arcane/Divine get Spells, Experts get Skills, and Martial get Combat Maneuvers. All get some "Talents" as well in their areas (Skill Talents, Arcanum Talents, Devout Talents, Combat Talents). Not sure what else you can 'give' Martial that doesn't bleed into the other areas.

I view the Martial Archetype as a building block, like the others. You can be a straight fighter and really customize your character's combat as narrow or broad as you want. If you want to be good at some non-combat skills, you take the Talents like Honeyed Tongue, Shady, Stealthy, etc. to be better at those and make yourself more of a fighter/diplomat or fighter/scout. If you want to approximate a paladin or holy champion, you take the right paths and get some casting. If you want to approximate a fighter mage, you take the paths and get some casting. As a val, you can always choose psionics regardless of your archetype.

This seems true of all archetypes. An expert that wants to be decent at combat or casting has to work at taking the right Combat Talents with his "Any 2 Talents" or the right Path to get access to casting. He won't be as broadly skilled as a Caster with all their adaptations or a Martial with all his maneuvers.

I'm struggling with what people who feel the martial is lacking feel would help that isn't already something they can do?

Take an appropriate background, choose an appropriate nation/race and you can get some non-combat skills at 3 at character gen and advance a few of them 2 / tier, plus any path boosts.

John

I think this is a common feeling, but it doesn't seem totally accurate to me. IT overlooks that martial characters have access to the physical skills as well as the combat skills for advancement. Acrobatics, Athletics, Ride, and Stealth cover a huge range on non-combat skills, which also makes martial characters the best for confronting physical or environmental challenges. Like I said earlier, doing activities on a boat, making jump checks to go across a chasm, climbing a wall, etc. This is something the martial character excels at that is getting short shrift. The problem is that you are right, these are not usually roleplay intensive skills, and thus fade from view of a lot of players. It is easy to forget how easy conquering these challenges are for a martial character because they just do it, and then help the others over the challenge (or guard them as they get healed for failing them), but from the eyes of someone who plays a character who always needs someone to throw a rope down to him... and then have you pull him up, they are real skills. Rarely does success or failure in the mod depend on these skills like it might on some social or knowledge skills, bu truth be told, you almost always need the martial's combat skills, so it's not like he doesn't get a time to shine.

The majority of viewpoints about Martials seem to be that they can do so much combat/physical stuff. My point is that the game is more than that, and should be, for all characters. But it's really hard if not impossible as it stands now.

My point is that other character archetypes have access to skills that cover combat, physical, social, and knowledge areas of the game. Martials do not. I just think giving them some few non- physical/combat skills would be good.

Soldiers are not all/just big piles of meat and anger waiting for a brawl or a contest.

Just for comparison, each Archetype can "max out" (3 / Tier) the following (Not counting Arcanum as it's specific)

Arcane have: Deceit, Stealth, and 6 Lore [11 Skills] (Requires 2 Advancements)

Devout have: Religion, Deity Skill, and 6 Social [7 Skills] (Requires 2 Advancement)

Expert have: Any 6 they want (1 Advancement)

Martial have: Any 6 Combat or Physical [8 Skills] (1 Advancement)

Arcane have the widest selection of skills, 1 Social, 1 Physical, and 6 Lore that cover things from Larceny to Streetwise to Heal or Tracking.


If Martial were given any others, I'd say it would be Beast Lore, Wilderness Lore, and Tracking.

I don't see General Martial characters have complete access to any other skills without special training.

John

I'm not sure I follow. Arcane can select from 11 different skills for their 3+ Passive Logic in Lore skills. Experts have the widest selection as they can max out any 3+Passive Logic skills they want with no exceptions. Am I missing something?



The skills that to me seem like the most logical fit for expanded options if provided would be Heal as it's an Archetype skill, Intimidate - professions references Thugs and Guards and fits best of any of the social, and Beast Lore as it complements Ride. Next Tier down would be Wilderness Lore and Tracking. Scouts/Trackers are specialized enough that I could see those roles filled by Experts rather than Martial Archetypes typically. Perception would also be needed for that role which Martial's don't have. They can add it if they want using the Sharp Eyes Talent from Codex of Heroes, so it wouldn't be needed to add it to the base as it's accessible at a price. Scouts also tend to be in lighter armor which again points to an Archetype other than Martial or at least the best Scouts likely would be.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

Sorry I meant of Arcane/Divine/Martial, that Arcane have the broadest skills.

I think you have identified some good skills that *could* be added to the Martial list with Heal and Intimidate since Heal is given at the archetype level and Intimidate makes sense. With those 2 though I think that's enough. Perhaps there could be a separate Advancement option added that mirrors the Arcane/Divine.

Gain 1 Rank in Heal, Intimidate and either <Beast Lore, Wilderness Lore, or Tracking>

That gives one Lore (Heal), one Social (Intimidate) and another that represents some facet of outdoorsman.

John

Aha! That helps things click for me! The argument (or one of the major arguments) is less about "power" in combat but versatility out of combat!

It turns out I'm not sold on this either. Mostly it hinges on mod authors and the TNs of challenges. But there is no reason a Martial archetype character can't have 5 ranks in Persuasion Perception or Knowledge (History) moving into and through Tier 2. Start with 1 or 2 ranks and raise it 2 each Tier. IMO 5 ranks in something means you're good at it. 10 ranks mean you do TN 20 half asleep and is my bench mark for "professional." How many ranks do you need to be diplomatic? Depends on the TNs ... but I am hoping they don't automatically scale much just because we are moving up in tiers.

The TNs sort of work out like this:

TN 15 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 ranks succeed 50% . . . . . . . . 5 ranks routinely succeed
TN 20 . . 0 ranks routinely fail . . . 5 ranks succeed 50% . . . . . . . 10 ranks routinely succeed
TN 25 . . 5 ranks routinely fail . . . 10 ranks succeed 50% . . . . . . 15 ranks routinely succeed
TN 30 . .10 ranks routinely fail . . .15 ranks succeed 50% . . . . . . .20 ranks routinely succeed
TN 35 . .15 ranks routinely fail . . .20 ranks succeed 50% . . . . . . .25 ranks routinely succeed
TN 40 . .20 ranks routinely fail . . .25 ranks succeed 50% . . . . . . (you can't get 30 ranks)

Yes your martial archetype character is never going to be good at TN: 35 Etiquette and Deceit rolls. That's the domain of the dedicated Expert or Divine character (at Tier 5). On the other hand I don't think you need to be able to regularly hit TN 35 to be a decent "hustler."

The campaign can take one of 2 directions:
1) Follow the TN's given in the book for what is considered Easy through Astounding. This means that as characters rise in Tiers, those ranks they've been putting into key skills for their characters mean they will routinely make harder and harder checks more often. It also means that when a character get 'enough' Ranks in something to make TN's they want to, they can spread out some skill ranks to other skills. Some things will still take a lot of effort to make, but there will likely be someone in the group with high enough skill to have a decent chance at a lot of things.

2) Continue to raise TN's for things as characters rise in Tiers. This means that what takes a TN 20 now will take a TN 30 in 2-3 Tiers. This means that you *must* continue to raise every skill you've started with to have the same chance at success later on. This means that characters will likely never be able to routinely do things. The hard checks at Tier 1 will be hard checks at Tier 3 as well.

I hope that the campaign goes with Method 1, as otherwise, it becomes that 'arms races' talked about. It also means that in Method 1, Martial Characters with 10-12 ranks in something by Tier 5 are still going to be able to do a lot of things.

John