Let me start this thread by stating clearly that I'm looking to fix the Martial Archetypes rather than weakening the cores of what makes the other Archetypes special.

The more I see the rules in operation and the available options, the more I believe that there's an increasing gap between the Martial Archetype and the others. For more than 20 years when I look at new fantasy systems I always evaluate how the martial character and especially the melee characters stack up against their counterparts. In D&D, how often did you see a primary or exclusive fighter build until getting to a prestige class?

Consider the core of what makes each Archetype useful.
Arcane - casting, Prestidigitation plus Arcane Spell Casting yields 11 spells, 6-7 of which scale from Tier I through Tier V at no additional investment beyond keeping up a single skill. Adaptations within the spell ensure that the capabilities expand without needing additional adaptations, though they are available to further enhance. They are powerful in combat, and flexible with non-combat spells. They also excel at deceit, stealth and a wide variety of Lore skills. They are sages, healers, scouts and more.

Divine - casting, Prestidigitation plus Arcane Spell Casting yields 11 spells, 6-7 of which scale from Tier I through Tier V at no additional investment beyond keeping up a single skill. Adaptations within the spell ensure that the capabilities expand without needing additional adaptations, though they are available to further enhance. They are powerful in combat, and flexible with non-combat spells. They also excel at social skills, deep knowledge of religion and a skill core to the god they follow.

Experts - skill mastery both in and out of combat. Easily able to master combat, spell casting or both. Their breadth of knowledge and ability is vast especially given their ability to add more. Should they choose Divine Spell Casting, Arcane Spell Casting: Shaman or Arcane Spell Casting: Psionic under Undisciplined Psion they are easily a match within the core talents as any casting Archetype. If desired they also can easily qualify for the full 11 spells and able to keep up.

Martial - combat. They end up with more weapon options, more armor options than the others and perhaps a Martial Technique. They likely start with Weapon Mastery in 1 or more weapons. They are physical and athletic and can be sneaky with perhaps a bit more starting Mettle. Except for navigating physical challenges, their non-combat options are extremely limited. While they can add flexibility at 2 ranks / tier, all other Archetypes have the same and if they do, it's at the expense of other combat skills. Nothing at all compares to the spell casting.

Let's look at the ongoing options.

Arcane - 4.5 Advancements
+1 to all Skills
+1 to Any 3 + Passive Logic skills, likely 8 by at least Tier 2 for 7 skills
+1 to Arcanum, Deceit, Stealth
+1 to 3 + Passive Logic Lore skills, likely 8 by at least Tier 2 for 7 skills
If desired 10 skills at max ranks covering a wide range of non-combat skills and their primary combat skill (Arcanum)
Half of their 2 two Arcane Talents is their Arcane Spell Casting. This yields 4/4/3/5 additional spells over the course of Tiers 2 through 5 for a total of 27 spells

Divine - 4.5 Advancements
+1 to all Skills
+1 to Any 3 + Passive Logic skills, likely a Logic 5 for 6 skills
+1 to Arcanum, Knowledge: Religion, god's skill
+1 to 3 + Passive Logic Social skills, likely a Logic of 5 for 6 skills. While there are only 5, Perception can be added for a Talent
If desired 9 skills at max ranks covering Perception Knowledge: Religion, all social skills and their primary combat skill (Arcanum)
Half of their 2 two Devout Talents is their Arcane Spell Casting. This yields 4/4/3/5 additional spells over the course of Tiers 2 through 5 for a total of 27 spells

Expert - 5 Advancements
+1 to all Skills
+1 to Any 3 + Passive Logic skills, likely 8 by at least Tier 2 for 7 skills
+1 to 3 + Passive Logic Lore skills, likely 8 by at least Tier 2 for 7 skills
+2/Tier to 2 new skills - 10 skills over 5 Tiers ending with no further investment as follows 2 each at +7/+8/+9/+10/+11
+2/Tier to 2 new skills - 10 skills over 5 Tiers ending with no further investment as follows 2 each at +7/+8/+9/+10/+11
7 skills at 3 ranks/tier [15+starting +min 1] + 20 additional skills at a minimum of +7

The flexibility of the above in and out of combat situations is incredible - lore skills, physical, combat, social, artisan are all there for the taking.

Going Martial instead they could as many Martial Skills at max ranks with all the weapon tricks
They can easily do both casting and Martial Skills at max ranks with minimal investments (3 skills - Arcanum, Melee, and Ranged)

Non-casting Expert, Bowman
Key ranged Martial Techniques (at least with bows) (8-9)
1. Precise Aim (T1)
2. Rapid Shot (T1)
3. Unbalancing Attack (T1)
4. Careful Aim (T2)
5. Splitting Hairs (T2)
6. Blinding Strike or Snap Shot (T3) – maybe
7. Shattering Shot (T4)
8. Deadeye Shot (T4)
9. Moment of Prescience (T5)

Key ranged Combat Talents
1. Quickshot, also requires Quickdraw (replaced in many cases with Rapid Shot)
2. Hawkeye – I through V
3. Deadly Accuracy
4. Weapon Mastery I through V

Some of the above can be gotten from Paths. It’s certainly possible to ignore combat, but the above represents a fully tricked out, maxed out Archer. You can be very effective without taking everything. Avoiding Weapon Mastery “costs” +1 to hit and an average of 3 points of damage. Not following it does lose out on Criticals on double 8s or double 9s which is a +2% chance for a critical.

Hawkeye is more significant and Quickshot can probably be avoided. So 5 Talents. Most critical of the above ranged Martial Techniques are
1. Precise Aim (T1)
2. Rapid Shot (T1)
3. Careful Aim (T2)
4. Splitting Hairs (T2)
5. Blinding Strike or Snap Shot (T3)
6. Deadeye Shot (T4)
7. Moment of Prescience (T5)

As it stands the T3 isn’t required, cutting that to 6. The most likely change to Martial Techniques requirements would still eliminate it as there are 4 techniques before getting to T4.

So 6 techniques + 5 talents can make a significantly dangerous archer. Easily within range of the Any 2 Talents + either 1 more advancement or a Path that covers 1 of the options. A single Path tier of Bowman grants Hawkeye plus an Heirloom bow.

To be clear, this isn’t just an awesome archer for Experts, but for Arcane or Divine as well and again within reach.

NOTE: Will add the Melee write up as soon as time allows.

Casting Expert
They can start with Spell Casting or easily add it Tier 1 with the same 11/+4/+4/+3/+5 = 27 spells. They will or certainly can have the same casting ranks as a dedicated casting Archetype. They lose out on even greater spell breadth or some additional adaptations. Again they can recover up to 10 - 15 spells/Arcane or Devout Talents through any 2 talents and the +1 talent option. Even without those additions, the 20+ scaled spells to Tier 5 effectiveness is huge.

For all 3 Archtypes, 22 - 23 spells advance in power to be effective at Tier 5 with no additional investment beyond the Arcanum skill.

Martial Characters
+1 to all Skills
+1 to Any 3 + Passive Logic skills, likely a Logic 5 for 6 skills
+1 to 3 + Passive Logic Combat and Physical skills, likely a Logic of 5 for 6 skills. If desired Perception can be added for a Talent
2 Martial Techniques per tier for a total of 10

There is no skill flexibility or much use outside of combat beyond overcoming some physical challenges. Any that's available by pursuing skills at 2 ranks/Tier are available to the other Archetypes without sacrificing their core strengths or power. Switching weapons in combat is time consuming and requires significant additional investment in the weapons to make them useful.

Martial Techniques don't scale like spells do, neither do weapon tricks. Weapon tricks often end at Tier 3 decreasing the benefit and options for skills above 9 ranks. Combat talents don't come close to scaling or the power of spells.

Cherry picking allows for the other Archetypes to pick the most useful and/or powerful of the Combat Talents and Martial Techniques. There's virtually no governors on almost any of them that limit the other 3 Archetypes' access. And this is what they're doing when they're NOT using their most powerful abilities, i.e. recovering from strain. Their 2nd tier is equal or almost equal to the Martial character's best.

Any Martial Technique through Tier 4 are easily accessible to all the other Archetypes, without as some have pointed out any requirement for previous tiers techniques. All Tier 5 martial techniques are easily accessible to Experts and with some effort to Arcane or Divine casters. War Mage and War Priest talents only make that easier. They do trade 10 spells for it which leaves the caster at 15 - 16 scaling spells + more vs. the 10 Martial Techniques. With the Learn Spell Talent as the other half of their primary advancement, even the loss of spells is fairly easily negated. And again, those scale where the techniques do not.

Don't believe me? Build the best, most flexible characters you can within each Archetype at any tier, especially the higher ones. Leave Martial Archetypes as non-casters, otherwise it only reinforces the fact that casting is required to match usefulness at the higher tiers.

So with all that said, I'd like to figure out ways of fixing the Martial Archetype. What changes to advancements, martial techniques, combat talents etc. need to be made to make them useful?

If you feel I'm way off base, provide some evidence to substantiate the claims. I'd be happy to be wrong. Perhaps I'm just bad at seeing possibilities, combinations or ways to truly make them useful. In which case I can use this as a learning experience.

Respectfully and with a sweep of his hat,

Paul

One thing I'm confused about is how you expect the Expert to learn casting to prove they are superior to Martial Archetypes, but any attempt to add casting to Martial only reinforces casting is necessary. I would challenge you to consider the Expert without casting and make a comparison that way. It's entirely possible for a Martial character to gain the exact same Spellcasting as an Expert with the Sword and Spell Talent.

If you aren't considering Casting for Martial, you can't consider Casting for Experts.

John

Given the results of the 'informal' poll, it appears Martial outnumber Experts by twice. Here is the Link.

John

30 vs 19 is not 2x

you using some funny engineering math?

however i do agree about not including casting inherently skewing the results, i will not build a character that is not a caster of some sort, its too integral to the system

Sorry though it was 16 vs 30. Statement still stands.

John

John,

I disagree that showing Experts with casting is an unfair comparison though. From a ranks and Spell Casting talent perspective they are the equal of the 2 individual Archetypes. I'm happy to show Experts with and without those casting options. The +20 skills ranging from +7 to +11 are noted above as is the far greater flexibility both with combat and non-combat skills. From a strictly skills perspective the Expert can match/exceed the Martial with those extra skills to round things out. As I said, I can make adjustments above.

Expert + full casting is not identical to Martial + Sword and Spell. The Martial character spends 1 more Talent, gets 2 less skill points and 10 less spells with less flexibility in spell selection losing primary or both secondary. I'd say that's a significant difference.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

That's fine. I'm happy to take that comment out. I'm not sure 72 characters is sufficiently representative but as I said, I have no problem removing it.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

So I'm not putting words in your mouth, can you please explain why you will not build a character who's not a caster of some sort?

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

because magic the gods and the harvesters and the story of the blessed lands is where the story is and what it continues to revolve around, I play this game to involve myself in the story as much as possible.
I feel that purely martial characters are really missing out on a good portion of the game.

additionally I feel that the rules will dictate the the kinds of characters that are created (as compared to how they are created) the more rules you have about casting spells the more spell casters you will have, similarly the more space you take in the rule book talking about val families, the more val you are going to have playing, i feel there is a rule or law describing this but i couldnt tell you what its called.

I'm not sure exactly what you're advocating. If your advocating that Martials get more out of combat skills, why then would anyone play an Expert?

Arcane characters other than Eldritch are not likely to have 8 Logic, but 5 like everyone else.

You're also leaving out Talent comparisons, which unfairly paints the picture in your favor. Let's look at some other comparisons.

Arcane
Starting Skills: 3 "Fixed" skills + 2 Lore Skills
Starting Talents: 2 "Fixed" talents, 2 Weapons (Nation), 1 Armor (Light, Nation)

Divine
Starting Skills: 3 "Fixed" skills + 1 Social Skill, 1 Combat Skill
Starting Talents: 2 "Fixed" talents, 1 Weapon (Deity), 1 Armor (Deity)

Expert
Starting Skills: 6 Skills (Non-Combat, Non-Arcanum)
Starting Talents: 2 Skill Talents, 3 Weapons (2 Nation, 1 Any), 1 Armor (Light, Nation)

Martial
Starting Skills: 2 "Fixed" skills + 2 Combat Skills
Starting Talents: 2 "Fixed" talents, ~12 Weapons, ~8 Armors

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For advancements you've left off the Martial Options that include up to 4 Combat Talents in 2 advancements and the +4 Stamina that no one else can get. Martial Characters are great at combat and physical skills. They can still contribute with any other skills at 2-3 / tier (Depending on paths taken).

Martial Characters are unparalleled in their versatility in weapon and armor choices, their physical perseverance, and their survivability. If they got 'skill versatility' as well, that would push them over the line.

I still contend that an Expert, Arcane, or Divine who is as good as a Martial in 1 combat style (balanced, unbalanced, etc.) is still behind the Martial in overall combat effectiveness. The Expert (or Arcane/Divine) is not going to have the talents necessary to learn all the good martial techniques that really let them shine in combat. The Martial is going to be able to use ranged weapons, melee weapons, heavy armor, shields of all types and have the Talents to learn new combat abilities like Wolf Pack Tactics, etc. I don't know if you've played at a table with a Sweeping Strike/Shield Basher or a Sweeping Strike/Mighty Swing doing 20-25 damage in one hit or knocking prone 3 enemies at once while the experts do about 12-14 a hit. But if a Martial can do that IN combat and then be the party face or the party thief outside of combat, what is there for the Expert to do?

John