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 Post subject: Re: Buckler and Spellcasting
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:14 pm 

Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:12 pm
Posts: 609
I disagree. But I have a different mind set on shield bonuses. Everyone should have access to a shield bonus from some source.

As per realism of shield and casting or TWF and casting, I was thinking more on the lines of just giving people more options to have fun, instead of your character can't. There is no story reason for preventing TWF and shield users from casting.

As per throwing Nierites a bone, what about Hurrianic Aegis?


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 Post subject: Re: Buckler and Spellcasting
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:41 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:45 pm
Posts: 632
Ok. Lets bring some 20 foot pike reality checks to the discussion.

This is a training video on how to fight sidesword and buckler. It clearly describes the problems with holding with a loose grip. Holding a buckler with a grip loose enough that you can "juggle" it and cast is going to get you killed very quickly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxCsoAFMNO0

Below is a video of broadsword and buckler. Note the extreme force that the buckler user must defect when engaging the enemy sword.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S93x-suhiZM

This is a video of a fight involving a broad sword in each hand. Again note the extreme speed of the movements.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X008vUJIpi0

Now rhetorically speaking. HOW exactly is the talent supposed to allow a casting movement while maintain control on the all weapons/shields involved while in combat?

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 Post subject: Re: Buckler and Spellcasting
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:45 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:45 pm
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For contrast here is an example of quick hands in action. Pay close attention to the number of times the spearman removes his left hand from the spear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWaX5kBtgOg

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 Post subject: Re: Buckler and Spellcasting
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:54 pm 
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I'm waiting for the video of the magician casting spells! That ought to be good.

The point is, fighting styles in the game do not need to match RL fighting styles, particularly when magic is involved. The idea behind Shield or Off-Hand Weapon casting isn't about 'letting go' and casting, it's about adapting your casting to include the fact that you're using a shield or off-hand weapon.

John

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 Post subject: Re: Buckler and Spellcasting
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:56 pm 
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I agree with Eric and Eric that casting with a shield or weapon in your off hand is not something that is realistic. I'm MORE fine with the shield (at least with a Buckler or Light Shield as they are light enough and can be strapped to the forearm) than I am with ANY of the other ones, but even then I think that we should do something much more than a CTN +3, Speed +2 (maybe CTN +5, Speed +2) without any options for other weapons. It is simply too much to do with your hands to be able to double dip like this.

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 Post subject: Re: Buckler and Spellcasting
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:00 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:45 pm
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Then that is a fundamental change in the way the rules are currently written and the thematics of the same. As it stands you must have a hand free to cast. If you say that you can adapt the weapon into the casting, then we already have that talent. It is Arcane Strike. Any sword and board weapon casting style would have to have Arcane Strike as a prereq in order to remain constant with the intent of the current rules already in place.

{edit : I'm referring to John's reply to my post}

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 Post subject: Re: Buckler and Spellcasting
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:43 pm 
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val Holryn wrote:
Instead my read is that it is more about the arms race to raise the avoidance of spell casting PCs.


I agree with Erik. I think allowing barely harder spell casting along with the additional constant defense/offense options of a shield and an in-hand weapon is very, very powerful. Too powerful, really.

I like the Quick Draw solution that's already been detailed, but with one modification (based on the clarification on the limits of Trivial actions each turn). A character can tuck a weapon or shield away as a Trivial addition (the one per) to an action (like casting a spell), then on their next action can re-draw as another Trivial addition.

Any other option should be at least as 'spendy' as Qui k Draw, which needs to be the Tier III option right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Buckler and Spellcasting
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:45 pm 
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Well it'll be possible in Tier 3 to cast with a shield anyways if you have Quick Draw for only 2 Trivial Actions, so making it CTN +5 / Speed +3 will just mean it's not used.

John

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 Post subject: Re: Buckler and Spellcasting
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:10 pm 
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Harliquinn wrote:
Well it'll be possible in Tier 3 to cast with a shield anyways if you have Quick Draw for only 2 Trivial Actions, so making it CTN +5 / Speed +3 will just mean it's not used.

John

Those 2 trivial actions can have a huge impact on effects.

Eg.
Action: Cast spell (Spd: 5), Stow Shield (Spd: +1, with Quickdraw III).
.
.
.
.
.
Action: Ready shield (Spd: +1 with Quickdraw I), another action.

For those 6 ticks, the cast is vulnerable to attack or does not have a weapon in hand.
Compared to Quick Hands (ta), which does not have that period of down time.

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 Post subject: Re: Buckler and Spellcasting
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:26 pm 
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Well the 'Cast with Shield" would have removed the shield anyways so it's no worse off....

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