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Using a 20' long weapon in combat?
http://forums.paradigmconcepts.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=749		 Page 6 of 7
Author:  PCI_StatMonkey [ Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a 20' long weapon in combat?
Harliquinn wrote:
ZCaslar wrote:
wilcoxon wrote:
Personally, I disagree with restricting maneuvers to optimum range for reach weapons. Does it make realistic sense? Maybe. Does it make for a fun game? No (long spear already seems to be under-represented/utilized - this would only make it worse). Does it make the game more balanced? No. Reach weapons already have a -2 (iirc) per 5' under optimal range which seems like all the balance that is needed. Sweeping Strikes is still restricted to 2-3 targets. If there are higher tier maneuvers (I haven't looked at them much) that break with reach weapons, maybe errata those specific maneuvers.


Yeah, what he's on about.
I'm seeing smoke but not feeling any heat off this thing, y'know?


There is Whirlwind Attack: Attack all creatures within range. That's where it truly breaks.

Flowing Sand can be another one where it breaks.

John



I will be taking a look at not only reach weapons BUT muti-target maneuvers.

I have been playing around with limiting what maneuvers can be combined with muti-target maneuvers.
Author:  Eric Hughes [ Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a 20' long weapon in combat?
Sounds like a great plan Pedro.
Author:  DeadZone [ Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a 20' long weapon in combat?
Harliquinn wrote:
There is Whirlwind Attack: Attack all creatures within range. That's where it truly breaks.

Flowing Sand can be another one where it breaks.

John

While I'm completely fine with leaving it alone and saying, "expect table variation." I have to admit that Flowing Sand has me a bit worried. Sure, with Whirlwind attack, you have the potential to make 80 attacks, with 32 of them at your optimal range and the rest at a -2 through -6 penalty. Maybe the -2 through -6 penalty is enough to discourage that attack. But Flowing Sand is another beast. Maybe by Tier 5, it won't matter. But if you have a 50' pace, this is a potential of 170 attacks that you could make. And worst-case scenario, up to 132 of them will be without the -2 through -6 range penalty. Now that's obscene.

Now, combine Whirlwind attack or Flowing Sand with another maneuver that pushes the clock or stuns an opponent and look out.

Is it dangerous enough to warrant discussion? Probably. Is this a case of lots of smoke, but no fire? Possibly. For now, like I said, I''ll just use the optimal range solution at my tables. But I wonder how many pike wielders we're going to see at tier 5.

Scott
Author:  Southernskies [ Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a 20' long weapon in combat?
PCI_StatMonkey wrote:
I will be taking a look at not only reach weapons BUT muti-target maneuvers.

I have been playing around with limiting what maneuvers can be combined with muti-target maneuvers.


The effectiveness comes down to the efficiency in speed. In a non-tick combat system using rounds, its not as unbalancing as it is in Arcanis.

Here's a thought that will also address something like Flowing Sand (ta)
Quote:
Special: Add +1 Speed for each foe after the first that you attack. This is added after calculating the Speed cost of an Advanced Manoeuvre.


They can then attack all 128 targets; at the cost of 128 ticks of the clock!

Examples:
Sweeping Strike with Greatsword and Mighty Swing,
1 opponent = +1 (4) = 7 (4)
2 opponents = +2 (4) = 8 (4)
3 opponents = +3 (4) = 9 (4)

Sweeping Strike with Unarmed and Stunning Strike
1 opponent = +2 (5) = 5 (5)
2 opponents = +3 (5) = 6 (5)
3 opponents = +4 (5) = 7 (5)

The change in tick efficiency will favour the larger weapons. It will also make Quicken Maneuver (ta) a viable option (most of the "good" LMT only have a Speed cost of 1, so its not worth taking).
Author:  PCI_StatMonkey [ Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a 20' long weapon in combat?
Sorry to pop your flowing sand bubble

You may only perform a number of attacks less or equal to your Passive Quickness Value, and no more than one attack per foe.
Author:  ZCaslar [ Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a 20' long weapon in combat?
Hey, for Whirlwind Attack would all creatures mean allies as well?
Could be...*sniff* problematic.
Author:  wilcoxon [ Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a 20' long weapon in combat?
Harliquinn wrote:
ZCaslar wrote:
wilcoxon wrote:
Personally, I disagree with restricting maneuvers to optimum range for reach weapons. Does it make realistic sense? Maybe. Does it make for a fun game? No (long spear already seems to be under-represented/utilized - this would only make it worse). Does it make the game more balanced? No. Reach weapons already have a -2 (iirc) per 5' under optimal range which seems like all the balance that is needed. Sweeping Strikes is still restricted to 2-3 targets. If there are higher tier maneuvers (I haven't looked at them much) that break with reach weapons, maybe errata those specific maneuvers.


Yeah, what he's on about.
I'm seeing smoke but not feeling any heat off this thing, y'know?


There is Whirlwind Attack: Attack all creatures within range. That's where it truly breaks.

Flowing Sand can be another one where it breaks.

John


I think the key with Whirlwind Attack is "all creatures". The odds of there not being any allies within 20' are very low. I could see this being powerful but I don't think it's really broken (then again, I've never seen it in play so I could be wrong). I can see how Flowing Sand would potentially be an issue but it's Tier 5 (where I would expect things to be powerful - I haven't looked at Tier 5 enough to know if this would be out-of-line powerful).
Author:  Harliquinn [ Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a 20' long weapon in combat?
I'm not sure where you are all getting 'creatures' as whirlwind clearly states opponents.

john
Author:  wilcoxon [ Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a 20' long weapon in combat?
Harliquinn wrote:
I'm not sure where you are all getting 'creatures' as whirlwind clearly states opponents.

john


From your post at the bottom of the previous page. I didn't actually look up Whirlwind Attack. Well, that would be a simple fix for Whirlwind Attack - make it creatures (not just opponents). You'd have to be a little careful with most weapons but it'd be nearly impossible not to hit allies with a long spear.
Author:  Harliquinn [ Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using a 20' long weapon in combat?
Sorry I assumed everyone knew weapon attacks were opponents :) My mistake.
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