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 Post subject: How to get Weapon Tricks for shields
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:43 am 

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:17 am
Posts: 208
I was reading this thread
http://forums.paradigmconcepts.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=661

The link in the very first post has a link to a collection of rules that have been generally accepted on this forum.

But I can't find any talk on this forum about what is required to be able to learn weapon trick for a shield. I found this thread http://forums.paradigmconcepts.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=387 But it quickly became a discussion about runes.

These are the 3 points I'm looking at and they don't make any sense to me.

•Martial characters get weapon training with their national shields.
•Backgrounds like “Awakened Scion” that grant choice of a Weapon Talent, will also allow you to take Weapon Training Shield
•Weapon Training in Shield this does not provide a character with Armor training in that shield.


ARPG pg 187
Armor Proficiency, Shield [Combat]
Requirement: Armor Proficiency, any (ta)
Benefit: You may now utilize shields without penalty. You may also start to acquire shield Weapon Tricks as if you acquired Weapon Training with all shields.

ARPG pg 247
Weapon Tricks: All shields have the ability to perform a small number of Weapon Tricks. You must have the Armor Proficiency Talent with the shield in order to use these tricks.

According to these two excerpts it seems to me there is no such things as the Weapon Training Shield talent, because it is not needed. Also by taking Armor Proficiency, Shield you are proficient with all shields not just national ones.

But if I missed a thread somewhere please point it out.

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 Post subject: Re: How to get Weapon Tricks for shields
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:46 am 
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I have to admit I have come to Despise the way shields are treated in this game. Were it within my power (rest assured it isn't) I'd scrap the entirety of their mechanics and start over. Sometimes they count as weapons, sometimes they count as armor and sometimes they are their own thing. And my personal take is that its largely arbitrary when they count which way making them confusing in addition to needlessly complex.

I agree in part and disagree in part with Josh's opinions.

If you have armor proficiency with shields (usually, but not always, because you have the Martial Archetype) then I believe you can take tricks for them as a weapon as if you had Weapon Training Shield. Its like a virtual talent for that purpose. But, if you then wanted to take Weapon Mastery with Shields you would then have to go back and burn a talent on Weapon Prof Shield first.

If you have a background that let's you pick a weapon proficiency I believe you can use that to take WP: Shield even if you don't have armor training with shields. Obviously this gives you access to tricks. Technically this does not give you the ability to use a shield for defense as well...so in practice I think you need to also go back and buy Armor Training Shields or eat the non proficient penalties which suck (see page 187).

Yes if you spend a talent on Armor Training/Shields, you gain that training in all shields.

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 Post subject: Re: How to get Weapon Tricks for shields
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:21 am 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:36 am
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Eric, I'm not sure where we disagree, because I agree with everything you have said after you said, including the dislike of how shields are treated.

Vault and Eric:
As far as I can tell the one important reason to take weapon proficiency shield ( or to want to have it) is to take weapon mastery shield. and thats a Hurrianite thing.

its an edge case that during creation you really want to fight with a shield to take weapon proficiency shield, but its pretty remote that someone wants that.

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 Post subject: Re: How to get Weapon Tricks for shields
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:22 am 

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:17 am
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I didn't think about Weapon Mastery.

But still with the way that Armor Proficiency, Shield is written
Quote:
snip...You may also start to acquire shield Weapon Tricks as if you acquired Weapon Training with all shields.


Why not say that for the purpose of Weapon Mastery Shield, Armor Proficiency, Shield counts as Weapon Training Shield. I mean the Talent it self already says that.

About this bit

Quote:
•Backgrounds like “Awakened Scion” that grant choice of a Weapon Talent, will also allow you to take Weapon Training Shield

and this
Quote:
If you have a background that let's you pick a weapon proficiency I believe you can use that to take WP: Shield even if you don't have armor training with shields. Obviously this gives you access to tricks. Technically this does not give you the ability to use a shield for defense as well...so in practice I think you need to also go back and buy Armor Training Shields or eat the non proficient penalties which suck (see page 187).


A shield always provide some kind of defense bonus. On pg 187 it states that without Armor Proficiency, Shield, shields provide 1 AR that stacks with armor, but you take double the shield's SB to all attack rolls and all Physical action skill rolls. I would assume that would include attacks with the shield itself.

If you're building a character that wishes to use a shield as a weapon and you're not taking the Martial Archetype, and your Background doesn't provide Armor Proficiency, Shield. Your only option is to take Armor Proficiency, Shield at Step 9 (Talent selection) of Character Creation. That step grants you 2 (or 3 with Flaw) new Talents. You may select any Talent for which you meet the prerequisites. (pg95)

The prerequisite for Armor Proficiency, Shield is Armor Proficiency, any (ta) and all 4 Archetypes give some kind of Armor Proficiency. So it's very easy to get Armor Proficiency, Shield in every build if it's important you.

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 Post subject: Re: How to get Weapon Tricks for shields
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:23 pm 
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SamhainIA wrote:
Eric, I'm not sure where we disagree, because I agree with everything you have said after you said, including the dislike of how shields are treated...snip


waves hand like a jedi "... as I said, as Josh and I are in complete agreement on the subject ..." :P

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 Post subject: Re: How to get Weapon Tricks for shields
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:03 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:36 am
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damn why hasn't Pedro gotten the "like" button to work yet? Thanks Eric.

Vault, you have some really good points, and they are good reasons for that edge (weapon prof shield without armor prof shield) case to remain an edge case.

I would LOVE for Armor prof shield to count for Weapon mastery, but unless official wording is put out on that, its still required, and anyone that wants weapon mastery shield (or to put weapon runes on their shield) needs it.

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 Post subject: Re: How to get Weapon Tricks for shields
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:07 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:44 pm
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I'm with you guys in thinking it is currently too complicated and not liking it. However I think they currently fall in between the cleanest option as far as power goes. I think shields and their tricks are too good to just have the armor proficiency give you weapon training entirely but they aren't good enough to really justify the extra talent required to get weapon mastery with it either. So there is no good answer other than leave it as it is and try to make it very clear when it is a weapon and when it is armor.


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 Post subject: Re: How to get Weapon Tricks for shields
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:04 am 

Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:12 pm
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SamhainIA wrote:
(or to put weapon runes on their shield) needs it.

Why do I need training to use a shield weapon rune?


Last edited by Deviknyte on Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How to get Weapon Tricks for shields
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:47 am 
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Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:23 am
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Location: Miami Florida
Guys

This has been cleaned up in the current errata update which is currently under review by the staff,

:)

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 Post subject: Re: How to get Weapon Tricks for shields
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:35 pm 

Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:12 pm
Posts: 609
In my opinion there is no change needed for the talents of shield.


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