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 Post subject: commune with the spirits
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:27 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
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Location: Michigan
"Effect:Practitioners of the Primal ways become a bridge between the mortal and spiritual realms. You can call upon these sprits to grant you a boon; this boon takes the shape a single spell from the Corpus, Illusions, or Control Traditions. For the next 24 hours you may cast that spell as a primal spell."

What are the limitations on the range of commune with spirits? I know it is limited by tier (so you can't take a spell above your casting tier). But can you take spells that require knowledge of base spells, such as "Puppet Master" once you are tier III, even though you can't possibly know "puppet master" and "enemy of my enemy" at the same time?

What about in the control tradition? Can you take the psionic and elder spells, like mind lock and empathic link? Obviously you are neither of those, but unless you can you are missing half that tradition's spell options. Who knows what the "Spirits" can do....

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 Post subject: Re: commune with the spirits
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:12 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:36 am
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WEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLL thats a tough question.

Let me split that up into some smaller questions?

Can I get spells that are specific to Psionic or elder traditions ?
Can I get spells that have other spells as prerequisites ?

other relevant questions

Can I get spells higher than Tier 1?

SO the arguments i could see on this:

Psionic or Elder traditions, on one hand they are Pre requsites, on the other hand commune with spirits is already breaking the rules.

I personally think probably not.

spells with other spells with pre requistes, same argument, but there is less to support the "already breaking the rules" argument

I would guess this is very likely not.

Spells Higher than Tier 1, on one hand the other unique spells all operate at tier one level
on the other hand it doesnt say otherwise?

My guess is maybe/probably? call it 65% of the judges will allow it

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 Post subject: Re: commune with the spirits
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:25 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:44 pm
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Location: Cajun Country
I hadn't thought about it that way yet, but yeah it is certainly very powerful. I read it as pretty wide open that you can have any 1 spell (this would include a higher tier spell as written, but that would be useless since you couldn't cast it). Keep in mind it still takes you 1 hr to cast commune and you cast it as a primal spell so any special adaptations for source can't be used.


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 Post subject: Re: commune with the spirits
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:32 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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My take would be that you definitely can use spells of tier > 1. I'm less clear on psionic and elder-only spells - I could see this either way. I would say very unlikely on spells that require other spells (but I can see the arguments to allow it).

I see Commune with Spirits as potentially more powerful than the other unique spells but it definitely requires more foresight (it's not like you can go off for an hour in the middle of combat to learn something useful).

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 Post subject: Re: commune with the spirits
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:53 am 

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:44 pm
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One thing to keep in mind is how Primal magic is described. The caster doesn't "cast" the spells. He gets the spirits to generate the effect for him. The 1hr casting time is the negotiation and delivery of what the spirit wants and the Spell learned is the spirit performing the effect. That is how I see it getting around requirements and such as the spirit who is generating it can have the requirements.

All of that said it is a game and I won't be too distraught if they put some restrictions on the spell to keep it in line with others.


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 Post subject: Re: commune with the spirits
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:25 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
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Location: Michigan
archangel wrote:
I hadn't thought about it that way yet, but yeah it is certainly very powerful. I read it as pretty wide open that you can have any 1 spell (this would include a higher tier spell as written, but that would be useless since you couldn't cast it). Keep in mind it still takes you 1 hr to cast commune and you cast it as a primal spell so any special adaptations for source can't be used.


As for your take on it being a primal spell so you can't use any special adaptations for source, I would disagree. It specifies that you can choose one spell from one of three traditions. If I choose alter appearance from the corpus tradition, I would allow corpus adaptations to the spell, but obviously not psionic ones, because that is not the tradition to which you had access when you cast it.

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 Post subject: Re: commune with the spirits
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:31 pm 
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But you are NOT getting it through the Corpus Tradition. You are gaining it through Commune with Spirits. You are not trained in Corpus, and therefore could not gain the benefits of that tradition. Similarly, if you take a Control spell that has unique Psion and Elder powers, you would get neither of them because the source of your spell is not Psionic or Elder.

The issue here is in the details, and by my read Commune with Spirits gives you access to a SPELL in one of these three traditions, but it does not mean that you have access to those Traditions or the key sources, so you do not qualify for any of the 'unique' adaptations or abilities.

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 Post subject: Re: commune with the spirits
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:48 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm
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Location: Michigan
Nierite wrote:
But you are NOT getting it through the Corpus Tradition.


Agreed, but you are specifically getting a spell from the corpus tradition. The tradition source has been specified, and thus I think the tradition option are inherent in the language. If it had just said, "you get alter appearance" without a tradition specified, than I would agree that you wouldn't get tradition adaptations.

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 Post subject: Re: commune with the spirits
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:29 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:36 am
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I dont think you would get any of the tradition specific adaptations, the source changes to primal according to the text of commune

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 Post subject: Re: commune with the spirits
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:39 pm 
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I think that this is where our opinions diverge, Sir toodeep, because my read of the text tells me fairly clearly you do not get the tradition. The text of the spell Commune with Spirits says:

Commune with spirits wrote:
. . . this boon takes
the shape a single spell from the
Corpus, Illusions, or Control
Traditions.


It does not say that "You gain access to the Corpus, Illusions, and Control Traditions and the ability to cast one spell from one of these three traditions for 24 hours", it simply says you gain access to a single spell from the tradition. Because there is a VERY long list of spells in those three traditions, it makes much more sense from a word count perspective to just say "You can choose a single spell from the list provided later in this document" rather than individually listing each out.

That said, while you get to choose a single spell from Corpus, Illusions, or Control, none of those Traditions are playable for Primals. In fact, that is one of the core concepts of their casting options. As such, you gain access to one of these spells through a SPELL, not through the base tradition. Your "Tradition" for the spell gained is "Commune with Spirits" because you have not received training or access to the actual tradition that they originally came from. The metanarrative reason for Tradition, Path, or any other special adaptation is that by learning that spell through that method, you are taught new ways of manipulating it. It is the same concept as a Secret or Exotic spell. Since you do not have this training, but simply gain the power by selling your soul to a quasi-divine being, you do not have access to this special training.

I could be wrong, and if so I'm sorry, but my reading of the text does not support the argument that you 'gain the tradition along with the spell.'

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