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Ss'ressen church/sect?
http://forums.paradigmconcepts.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=581		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  wilcoxon [ Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Ss'ressen church/sect?
It's clear which deity (most) playable Ss'ressen worship but not what church/sect they are part of.

The Black Talons worship the Fire Dragon and Milandir recently added the Fire Dragon to the Milandric church. Does this mean that Black Talons are part of the Milandric Church or that their sect would still be ssethric (or ss'ressen)?

Similarly for Ashen Hides and the Dark Triumvirate recognizing the Fire Dragon as an aspect of Nier. Are the Ashen Hides part of the Dark Triumvirate or part of ssethric/ss'ressen sect?

Ghost Scales are even less clear. They mostly live in Coryan and worship "Herka" which is a Sarishan (iirc) artifact. Does this make them part of the Mother Church by extension or are they part of their own sect? Like some others have voiced, I'm highly curious why Herka hasn't directed the Ghost Scales to a direct worship of Sarish (since it seems to be at least semi-intelligent).
Author:  Nierite [ Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ss'ressen church/sect?
1) That is up to Henry to decide, but I think that while the Fire Dragon was added to the Milandric Orthodox Church, the Pantheon of Man was NOT added to their worship of the Fire Dragon. While politically they are a single sect, from a practical point of view the Black Talons form their own sect that is unique to all other churches.

2) It is probably the same with the Ashen Hides, where while they worship the Fire Dragon as an Aspect of Nier (which has been mostly accepted by the Dark Triumvirate), they do not necessarily worship the Dark Triumvirate. Unless there are Sarishan and Nerothian practices which have infiltrated their beliefs, they are likely a unique sect from all other churches, including the Black Talons.

3) The Herka is its own beliefs, and it has been stated by Henry that there are no Divine traditions of the Herka as the Herka is not a God, just a powerful, self aware Sarishan Artifact. At best, they are considered to be a Sarishan Heresy (which would isolate them from the 'major' religions in the game), at worst they are functionally Atheists for various religion-targeting spells as they do not worship a God.

As to why the Herka hasn't commanded them to worship Sarish: The Herka isn't (to our knowledge) in any way beholden to Sarish like a Valinor is (again, in theory). It was a Sarishan Artifact, but if it is self aware and powerful it could be forging its own path. There maybe Sarishan overtones to what it does, but that does not mean it is Sarishan any more.
Author:  Deviknyte [ Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ss'ressen church/sect?
wilcoxon wrote:
It's clear which deity (most) playable Ss'ressen worship but not what church/sect they are part of.

The Black Talons worship the Fire Dragon and Milandir recently added the Fire Dragon to the Milandric church. Does this mean that Black Talons are part of the Milandric Church or that their sect would still be ssethric (or ss'ressen)?

Similarly for Ashen Hides and the Dark Triumvirate recognizing the Fire Dragon as an aspect of Nier. Are the Ashen Hides part of the Dark Triumvirate or part of ssethric/ss'ressen sect?

Ghost Scales are even less clear. They mostly live in Coryan and worship "Herka" which is a Sarishan (iirc) artifact. Does this make them part of the Mother Church by extension or are they part of their own sect? Like some others have voiced, I'm highly curious why Herka hasn't directed the Ghost Scales to a direct worship of Sarish (since it seems to be at least semi-intelligent).
I've always been under the impression that sect is based on that individual's faith and it comes in two questions. How far/close from the tenets of a church do they worship? And does that individual believe he's a part of that church? The Black Talons of Milandir probably aren't considered Milandisian Orthodox. They've only recently been added to church. I'm sure very few of them believe or feel like they are a part of the pantheon of man (yet). And I'm sure most human Milandisians feel the same way. I would still consider them their own church for the purposes of sect targeting. At least for the time being. Side note, I don't think that the ssethric church would recognize the Fire Dragon aspect of Kassagore as a part of their church (even if they weren't worshiping Varn now ;) )

Couldn't tell you about they Ashen Hides.

The Ghost Scale are their own sect. Do they have any kind of divine ability, presence or power? No. But, they are still their own sect, and probably heretics to the rest of the Black Talons. The thing of Herka is that no one knows it's just an artifact of Sarish. So the Coryani Church has no idea what they are worshiping.
Author:  val Holryn [ Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ss'ressen church/sect?
I disagree somewhat. The issue of accepting the Fire Dragon as unique (ie not part of Nier) and recognition and acceptance of the worship of the Fire Dragon on his/its terms in human lands seems to have been a part of the campaign for awhile to me. I believe that for the purposes of channeling that yes ... the Fire Dragon and MOC are now simpatico. His symbol as I understand it is on the Milandesian ruric. How will this shake out in the campaign? Honestly I don't know ... because people are also right that there really isn't reciprocity on this issue. While the Fire Dragon has been essentially been accepted by Milandir, woe betide the Black Talon who accepts another deity as his or her patron. And what happens if some humans want to worship the Fire Dragon maybe as a martial alternative to Nier (or Hurrian now that the val'Tensens are largely gone...)?

Its a weird weird world where Milandir helps save Kassegore's worshipers and somehow integrates him along with Yig into (their version of) the PoM. Its now safer to worship Kas in Milandir (under the right form) than anywhere else in the known world. Of course it makes sense from their perspective...
Author:  Nierite [ Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ss'ressen church/sect?
Ultimately, it comes down to a question about how Channeling (and Smite, and etc. . .) work. Is the heresy being attacked in the mind of the God? The Church? The Caster? If it is the God, then that doesn't explain how, say, worshippers of Nier across the board can Smite one another. If it is the Church, then how does the organization alter the efficacy of the magics of the gods? If it is the caster, then ultimately it deals with the acceptance of the individual and the heresy being attacked. For example, a random Mother Church templar might be able to smite a Pantheonistic caster of the Orthodoxy because he views them as being a Heresy, but a member of the Orthodoxy in the Mother Church (and an adherent thereof in all other ways) might not be able to smite the Templar back because he sees no conflict.

Oh, the tangled webs of (fake) life. . .
Author:  Deviknyte [ Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ss'ressen church/sect?
val Holryn wrote:
I...Its a weird weird world where Milandir helps save Kassegore's worshipers and somehow integrates him along with Yig into (their version of) the PoM....
This! Should be paid attention to...
Author:  val Holryn [ Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ss'ressen church/sect?
Nierite wrote:
Ultimately, it comes down to a question about how Channeling (and Smite, and etc. . .) work. Is the heresy being attacked in the mind of the God? The Church? The Caster? If it is the God, then that doesn't explain how, say, worshipers of Nier across the board can Smite one another. If it is the Church, then how does the organization alter the efficacy of the magics of the gods? ...snip


For spells that work on sects I think the answer *HAS* to be the Church/Sect. Because THAT is the difference that the spells key off of. How does the political and doctrinal differences "alter the manifestation of divine cants? I don't have a clue. I concede there are a lot of grey areas and headaches in the changing areas of spellcasting. If it was a home campaign then the GM would just make rules on the fly based on what his or or her themes (or ludonarrative) is all about in the campaign. In a shared world campaign ... its different.
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