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starting languages?
http://forums.paradigmconcepts.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=567		 Page 2 of 3
Author:  Harliquinn [ Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: starting languages?
SamhainIA wrote:
Oh, missed that texr but I belive the consensus last time around was that choose one native language was the one that you have to spend youe first passive point of logic on


They are in different steps of character generation; therefore, if the intent is that if the 1 point of Passive Logic is used to take the language you get at the Nation step, it needs to have errata.

John
Author:  Deviknyte [ Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: starting languages?
Harliquinn wrote:
They are in different steps of character generation; therefore, if the intent is that if the 1 point of Passive Logic is used to take the language you get at the Nation step, it needs to have errata.

John

Agreed.

Also, the talk of having to take all my nation's languages first sounds like more diverse nations are actually a penalty. And for some characters it wouldn't make any sense to pick up ss'ressen just because I'm from Milandir.
Author:  SamhainIA [ Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: starting languages?
you do realize that the passive logic bit isnt in any of the character creation steps, its detailed in the linguistics skill
Author:  Harliquinn [ Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: starting languages?
SamhainIA wrote:
you do realize that the passive logic bit isnt in any of the character creation steps, its detailed in the linguistics skill


Which is part of either Skills or another step.

John
Author:  SamhainIA [ Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: starting languages?
well thats a strong assumption that I'm not making.

this is a giant Grey area in the rules, and its complex, MY simple rule of thumb is unless they are a linguist (talent or skill) Characters are going to have Passive logic + Racial languages
Author:  val Holryn [ Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: starting languages?
Guaranteed 1000% I am never going to edit a character while judging just to check for languages known.
Author:  Harliquinn [ Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: starting languages?
SamhainIA wrote:
well thats a strong assumption that I'm not making.

this is a giant Grey area in the rules, and its complex, MY simple rule of thumb is unless they are a linguist (talent or skill) Characters are going to have Passive logic + Racial languages


I differ only in that based upon the wording of the Nations table, Characters are going to start with Racial Languages + 1 National Language (appropriate for character) + Passive Logic languages (one of which must be their Native if they don't already have it). That's simple enough and still limits most people to 3-5 languages. (Depending on Racial/Native overlap).

PC's are considered above the normal population (Which are going to know 2-3 languages in many cases just based upon Race + Passive Logic of 2). Given the sheer amount of languages there are to know, it also makes sense that PC's should speak 3-5 without being a Linguist (Which would represent even more advanced training).

Obviously, if PCI comes back and clarifies this, that would change of course.

John
Author:  SamhainIA [ Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: starting languages?
Well John, my response to you would be to reconcile what all of the separate rule parts mean in a step by step fashion.

"each Hero learns a number of Languages equal to their Passive Logic Value, one of which must be your national language"

and

"Also, choose 1 of the Native languages as appropriate."

seem to fit together nicely as rules go the way I described it:
Racial languages + Passive logic, the first of which is a national language
Author:  Nierite [ Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: starting languages?
Pardon me (don't have the books handy), but which races don't get their national language from their Race (specifically stated they get it from their race)?
Author:  Harliquinn [ Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: starting languages?
Josh,
That would make perfect sense IF those two sentences were anywhere near one another or referenced in the same Character Step. However, they are not.

Step 5: Choose your hero's Home Nation and Region (Page 122) is the reference for Step 5. Page 122 is the table for nations and regions and it states:

Code:
Your hero’s homeland provides him with some rudimentary skills and determines if the character is automatically literate.
- Choose a Region and Nation from Table 2-6: Regional Skills.
- Choose 2 Skills from your home nation and add 1 Skill Rank to each.
- Also, choose 1 of the Native languages as appropriate.


The "Also," is in relation to what you get from your hero's homeland and has nothing to do with the Linguistics Skill.

The other reference to "one of which must be your national Language" is in the Linguistics Skill and the only table it refers to is the Language Table and not back to Table 2-6 or page 122. In addition to this being in a different section, one uses the term Native Language and one uses national language. Granted, they could be intended to be the same thing, but they are still chosen in different parts of character generation.

That is the reason I consider them two separate steps and not related. Overall, the sentence about Passive Logic is really in a bad place and could be missed by a lot of folks new to the system if they don't take Linguistics as a skill. By a 'strict' reading, one could argue you don't get your passive Logic in languages UNLESS you are also trained in Linguistics as it's all in the same paragraph and that sentence begins with "In addition,".

I'm certainly not claiming I am right, but considering there are no races that don't get their Native Language / national language, the entire 1 must be in your native tongue seems redundant and unnecessary. Being in a different area from Choose a Nation also lends to this. it really is an ambiguous area and would benefit from an official ruling on how those 3 sections interact.

John
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