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 Post subject: Re: Unarmed Combat and Two Weapon Fighting
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:59 pm 
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I have no skin in this discussion at all. Granted I am extrapolating from existing rules and implied or explicit intent based upon rules that do exist regarding how shields work.

It is not a perfect argument and I'm okay being wrong. I do have a fundamental problem with saying that the rules don't disallow something therefore it's allowed. There have been many instances of an absence of a rule being unintentional or considered by PCI to be common sense (Wings of the Valinor spell being one example). This eventually made it as eratta. One thing I hear a lot of from PCI is to use common sense in interpreting things. Granted, what is common sense to one person might not be to another. To me it violates common sense to be using unarmed martial arts with all body parts and still be protected by your shield. Your video shows a man using a sword and shield and moving around attacking with the weapon. I watched it twice and never saw him using kicks, head butts, or other unarmed attacks. There was a moment it looked like he attacked with his shield and it was behind and to his side, representing the lack of SB for a few seconds. I've never said you can't use TWF while holding a shield or with a tail braver. My argument has been that during that time you don't benefit from the shield's SB.

I will concede that I am the only one with this view and I won't press the issue any further. I haven't had it come up but I would certainly not penalize someone for it at a table I run unless there was an official ruling. I don't think I have any other discussion points right now so I'll just see what others have to say.

John

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 Post subject: Re: Unarmed Combat and Two Weapon Fighting
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:08 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:46 pm
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There are cases where I do feel TWF and a shield are not compatible. While unarmed could be combined with a shield I would not permit it with a two weapon rend maneuver which requires two claw attacks.

John: I've certainly not meant my comments to be personal. If my tone has been unclear I apologize.

With a sweep of his...

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 Post subject: Re: Unarmed Combat and Two Weapon Fighting
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:57 pm 
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Location: Portland OR
You know IIRC there was a rule in the old versions of D&D that required a free hand to make unarmed attacks regardless of how you describe it. Maybe that is part of the root of the disagreement. I've never really played a monk/grappler character so I'm not sure.

I have to confess I like the idea that you need some kind of "free hand" to make an unarmed attack (even if that "hand" is really your lizard-y tail). But I also do enough martial arts to readily agree that there could be (for example) lots of combos where you attack with a quarter-staff (using both hands) and some kind of kick or leg sweep in a TWF scenario.

I guess I would allow this as a judge. Hadn't really thought of the issue before.

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 Post subject: Re: Unarmed Combat and Two Weapon Fighting
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:17 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:46 pm
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Harliquinn wrote:
It is not a perfect argument and I'm okay being wrong. I do have a fundamental problem with saying that the rules don't disallow something therefore it's allowed. There have been many instances of an absence of a rule being unintentional or considered by PCI to be common sense (Wings of the Valinor spell being one example). This eventually made it as eratta. One thing I hear a lot of from PCI is to use common sense in interpreting things. Granted, what is common sense to one person might not be to another.


Agreed.

Harliquinn wrote:
To me it violates common sense to be using unarmed martial arts with all body parts and still be protected by your shield.


Martial arts in the karate, aikido, tae kwon do etc, I agree with you. I don't agree that unarmed attacks are limited to it.

That said, given the ambiguity around this specific rule it makes sense to clarify with the GM in advance where they fall on the question. That is unless or until there's an official statement. Given I'm in your neck of the woods and may have you as a GM I'll try and make sure to keep that in mind if you run for us.

With a sweep of his...

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 Post subject: Re: Unarmed Combat and Two Weapon Fighting
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 10:02 pm 

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umm that video that guy was making all sorts of kicks not a lot of them connected but that was a points match not a physical match

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 Post subject: Re: Unarmed Combat and Two Weapon Fighting
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 11:12 pm 
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Hat wrote:
There are cases where I do feel TWF and a shield are not compatible. While unarmed could be combined with a shield I would not permit it with a two weapon rend maneuver which requires two claw attacks.

John: I've certainly not meant my comments to be personal. If my tone has been unclear I apologize.

With a sweep of his...

Hat


Nothing you said was taken personally.

John

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 Post subject: Re: Unarmed Combat and Two Weapon Fighting
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 11:16 pm 
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SamhainIA wrote:
umm that video that guy was making all sorts of kicks not a lot of them connected but that was a points match not a physical match


I saw a lot of 'stomping' as he attacked with his melee weapon. Either way, I never said you couldn't do unarmed attacks while using a shield, only that specifically doing a TWF would prevent the shield from being used defensively during that action. As I mentioned, the popular feedback is that it is possible and that is all good.

John

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 Post subject: Re: Unarmed Combat and Two Weapon Fighting
PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:07 am 
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Just to throw one more opinion into the mix. Personally I tend to agree more with John's arguments. Officially, I don't really have a "side" on this and would easily go with whatever my judge said. If I were the judge, I'd probably let it fly, but with a penalty to the attack. (I'll explain why, below.) This is obviously (to me) a gray area where players should expect table-specific rulings and probably should not try to design a character concept around it, lest they be disappointed when they sit down with a judge who won't let it fly at all.

Now... Why would I let the attack happen, but impose a penalty? Well, unarmed combat, in general, primarily uses hands. Sure, you've got maneuvers that utilize the feet, knees, elbows, head, etc. But with rare exceptions (see capoeira) the primary appendage is the arms/hands. (Even capoeira needs the arms for balance.) And if you have a weapon in one hand and a shield in the other you have generally limited your attack options. Sure, we can say that we are going to head butt, or side kick or front kick or whatever; but in combat you don't always get to do what you "plan" to do. Now I understand that this is a game and that we need to emphasize playability over reality. But to me, if you want to perform a TWF attack and you have a weapon and a shield, you are strongly limiting your options. And although (in the absence of clear-cut rules one way or another) I'd let you do it, I'd impose a penalty on the second attack. (Probably a -2.)

Scott


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 Post subject: Re: Unarmed Combat and Two Weapon Fighting
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:35 am 
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As a user of this style, the opportunity cost is quite high I've found so far.

Problem 1: Unarmed damage is just "+1" without a talent. Gauntlets can be used with the Unarmed skill but are a specific weapon (which requires the use of the hand, precluding a shield).
Problem 2: The investment in a second melee skill gets expensive (three in my case: Balanced, Unbalanced and Unarmed).
Problem 3: Related to Problem 1; as soon as heavier armour turns up, too many of your blows just bounce off the armour (or don't hit due to the TWF penalties).

The main attraction is flexibility. Depending on the Clock, front-loading two attacks might be enough to drop a foe where one won't.

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 Post subject: Re: Unarmed Combat and Two Weapon Fighting
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:40 am 
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while this may require some official errata to enforce, TWF + Unarmed should NOT be able to be preformed while benefiting from a shield.

I think the best way to do so would be to errata the two-weapon fighting talent.

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