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 Post subject: Re: Advanced Maneuevers questions
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:29 am 
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SamhainIA wrote:
but if they arent, you have to let people do things with them that make sense


If only that were a universally agreed upon term. What it does is make certain weapons and spells outshine a lot of others. That may be fine to most and not everything needs to be 'equal' but in my opinion obviously optimal choices means that those who don't want those choices are left with suboptimal options.

John

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 Post subject: Re: Advanced Maneuevers questions
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:58 am 

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John, i think your responding to an argument that I'm not aware of.

What I'm saying is that if the rule allow for those spells and maneuvers to be made, then as a judge you have to allow them, as long as they make sense. I think my example is a great maneuver that makes sense.

Mechanically these things are sound, flowing sand is a Tier 5 maneuver, i think you are expressing hyperbole comparing it to a tier 1 maneuver. In context it might make perfect sense.

Additionally, I think this is a time to remember that sometimes you have to examine the mechanics of whats happening with the interaction of rules somewhat separately from the story elements behind those things. And then integrate what the mechanics allow into your story within reason. AKA if someone has a great description of how they are trained in meeting the charge with a spear and then tearing into enemy lines, quickset and flowing sand begins to make more sense.

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 Post subject: Re: Advanced Maneuevers questions
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:07 am 
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Not really responding to an argument...it's just that as we are firmly into Tier II and I've had the pleasure to play with a lot of folks and see their builds, it's clear that there are very powerful / optimal choices in terms of weapons and spells and if you aren't able to take those (or they don't fit your character) you are left feeling very suboptimal. Granted some of this is perception, but I fear it will only get worse in later tiers.

That said, I still feel that mixing Push and non-Push combinations has the potential to be unbalancing.

John

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Kelb'Bakari Masalio, Dark-kin Altherian Corsair, Gentleman Archaeologist, and Wandering Bard
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 Post subject: Re: Advanced Maneuevers questions
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:09 pm 

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well in all things that require choices, there are choices that are optimal and there choices that are not optimal, and that evaluation of optimal is different for each player and character concept. The more choices that you make the more opportunity there is to be on a not optimal path for your character. I would argue that mods are not targeted at optimal characters rather than the characters that are more middle of the road.

If your a jack of all trades you are a master of none. This is a world where not all places, races, spells and weapons are equal and balanced. Optimality is very subjective, a character can be really good at one thing, and next to useless in another.

One thing that has been in every mod produced is combat, its fairly easy to say that if you specialize in combat you will have a chance to shine in every mod. that's not as true with diplomacy or wilderness lore or thieving skills (and the way to change that is to write mods or influence writers directly)

in Arcanis there are multiple ways to specialize in combat, melee fighters, ranged fighters, spell casters of different stripes, and hybrids of those (not all hybrids mind you). My personal opinion is that the most effective character is one that maximizes the use of strain and recovery, but that is just one take on the idea.

I would hazard a guess that its probably possible to optimize a lot of things, but you have to go into the project with that in mind, and a lot of people don't play that way. and this has been an eternal problem in gaming, particular living campaigns where there is a very diverse set of players. to some people (like me) there is a lot of fun to be had solving the logical puzzles presented by optimizing characters, and some people have a lot of fun roleplaying their characters in social interactions, it takes all stripes of people.

I don't think there is one or even a small subset of dominant character types, I do however firmly believe that not all concepts are equally viable. for example I don't see a good way to make a Dark kin character that's dependent on a horn gore attack to be optimized (or even very survivable) However that might make a Great thematic trait or a good, opening move or finishing move or backup weapon type thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Advanced Maneuevers questions
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:21 pm 

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The most important part of character creation is the Character concept, and Looking back at that character concept when deciding on things to take. Delbert was a rebuild when CoH came out to take advantage of the Holmgang fighting style, but I remained true to my character concept of "Milandisian knight, and a character who's actions are patterned after my grandpa)

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 Post subject: Re: Advanced Maneuevers questions
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:34 pm 
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SamhainIA wrote:
The most important part of character creation is the Character concept, and Looking back at that character concept when deciding on things to take. Delbert was a rebuild when CoH came out to take advantage of the Holmgang fighting style, but I remained true to my character concept of "Milandisian knight, and a character who's actions are patterned after my grandpa)


As long as the concept fits within the rules and is effective within the rules.

John

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Kelb'Bakari Masalio, Dark-kin Altherian Corsair, Gentleman Archaeologist, and Wandering Bard
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 Post subject: Re: Advanced Maneuevers questions
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:53 pm 
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I think we've gotten off topic so I'm going to reign in my responses on character concepts.

John

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Kelb'Bakari Masalio, Dark-kin Altherian Corsair, Gentleman Archaeologist, and Wandering Bard
"The highest compliment an Altherian can pay you is to shoot you with his flintlock. It means you were worth the expense."


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 Post subject: Re: Advanced Maneuevers questions
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:40 pm 

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if we aren't talking about character concept and optimization, then we are talking about advanced maneuvers with push, and what rules do or don't support that. My argument, that they are combine able into advanced maneuvers because they seem to fit in to the existing rules and there are rules that specifically disallow this normally (riposte p 270 can only be combines with other pushs).

There are very few push type maneuvers that this would be allowed for but it makes for a very interesting corollary for push spells. (It makes a lot of spells particularly appealing if you can use them in reactions to something else and tack on some added damage)

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 Post subject: Re: Advanced Maneuevers questions
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:18 pm 

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Pedro ruled in the older threads you CAN NOT combine a push maneuver with a any other, unless the maneuver says otherwise.


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 Post subject: Re: Advanced Maneuevers questions
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:26 pm 

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then why are they even base maneuvers?

so if your correct Devin the only maneuver that could be combined is riposte, and it has nothing it can combine with.

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