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Rebuke
http://forums.paradigmconcepts.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=377		 Page 2 of 3
Author:  SamhainIA [ Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rebuke
Devin, the rules you are looking for are part of the description for sustained spell (pg 346)

Quote:
If the Sustained spell affects an area (such as a radius, cone, or arc) you must roll attack rolls each time someone enters the area
Author:  Nierite [ Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rebuke
Alas, Josh, he has a point. After all, the rules for Sustained Spells only count if the spell itself does not specifically give rules as to its use which supersede the basic rules.

Rebuke wrote:
All creatures affected by the spell’s initial casting must
move to the edge of the effect. For as long as the spell is active,
the affected creatures will not enter the spell’s radius.
Sustained Effect: Creatures affected must remain outside of
the spell’s area.
Pushing Through: Normally, an effected entity will do all it
can to stay away from the offending priest, but sometimes
blood lust, rage, or pure hatred will allow it to overcome its
fear. To attack, the Undead must succeed in a Mettle: Perseverance
(Re) Action Skill Roll against the caster’s Passive
Arcanum Value.


Okay, re-reading this effect and it does look like Devin has a point here:

1) Only those within a 10' Radius of the initial casting are affected by the spell. Those who are affected are pushed to the edge and cannot enter (even to attack).

2) All creatures outside of the 10' radius are completely unaffected, and can enter the 'bubble' as they please.

3) Those creatures that are affected can reenter the 'bubble' by making a Mettle: Perseverence (Re) roll against the caster.

4) If the creatures FAIL their roll, they can continue to try to enter on subsequent turns.

As such, this ability is FAR more weak than I previously thought it was. This isn't necessarily a bad thing (I'd rather a spell end up being LESS powerful than MORE powerful), but it means I'll have to rethink how to use this spell.

And I'm like Josh in that the speed of trying to break through is the speed of the action they were trying to do when they attempted to break through. If they were doing a basic movement, it is 4 ticks. If they have reach and are trying to attack, it is the speed of the attack.
Author:  Harliquinn [ Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rebuke
The spell is pretty much a 'turning undead' effect, with the priest brandishing his holy symbol and keeping undead and spirits at bay. Josh's point stands that it's still a sustained spell and one should not read too much into the 'at the initial casting' to imply that it won't impede new undead that come into range.

What that is more likely to mean is that if a creature is outside the initial casting, they can't be 'pushed to the edge', as they must be attacked when they try to enter. If they are successfully attacked, they can't enter, so being pushed back makes no sense. If they are not successfully attacked, they can enter with no restrictions, so again being pushed back makes no sense.

John
Author:  Deviknyte [ Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rebuke
SamhainIA wrote:
Devin, the rules you are looking for are part of the description for sustained spell (pg 346)

Quote:
If the Sustained spell affects an area (such as a radius, cone, or arc) you must roll attack rolls each time someone enters the area

I think thissspell is an exception to the rule with the use of the word initial.
Author:  SamhainIA [ Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rebuke
So here we are again, with multiple points of view.

Here is how I Run the spell (and will continue to do so unless there is a good argument else wise)

Tick 1
David successfully casts rebuke. (speed 3, strain 3, sustain 2)
David makes an attack roll vs the discipline of all "affected creatures", that is all creatures that are "Undead,Shades,Spirits or Infernals". Any creature he successfully affects on its next action must move to the edge of the effect 10 feet away. (For convenience we will assume that he affects all creatures unless otherwise noted)

Tick 2 the skeletons (mindless undead) take a move action to move to the edge of the effect (spd4)

Tick 3 The Infernal (the very angry infernal) Attempts to "Push Through" and succeeds and attacks (Spd 4)

Tick 3 The Ghost (the angry Ghost) Attempts to "Push Through" and fails and Moves away (Spd 4)

Tick 4 David sustains the spell, the only creature in the AOE is the infernal and it has already Pushed through and is no longer affected by the spell.

Tick 6 David sustains the spell
Tick 6 The Skeletons Go, David has to make attack roll on them again since he has sustained the spell, he succeeds they stay where they are since they are mindless (Spd 4)

Tick7 The Infernal attacks (and wont be spoken of again, no longer affected by the spell)
Tick 7 the Ghost Tries to move in again, David makes a successful attack, and the Ghost fails to push through the Ghost (Spd 4)
Tick 7 New infernal appears His name is InfernalTwo he tries to charge David, but david successfully hits him as he moves into the AOE and he does not push through
(spd 3 because magic)
Tick 8 David takes 5' incidental movement closer to all of the creatures and sustains his spell (spd 3) He is now forced to make a disc attack on the sekeltons, ghost and infernaltwo because they are in the AOE of the spell, he has some luck and makes all the attack rolls again

tick 10 skeletons
Tick 10 InfernalTwo
Tick 11 Ghost
Author:  Harliquinn [ Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rebuke
I run it the same way as Josh.

John
Author:  SamhainIA [ Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rebuke
essentially is a spell that has 2 "saves" that does no damage.

At its best, its just going to slow down the enemy, even then probably not that much
Author:  Nierite [ Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rebuke
I also used to play it much the same (though creatures are immediately moved to the edge not simply "when they feel like it" on their turn). I've moved to Devin's line of thinking here, as stated above as his interpretation does indeed better fit with the rules than the ones I previously used. After all, you are citing the basic rules for sustained, and he is citing the spell itself. In a pissing contest between "Basic rules" and "Specific exceptions made by a specific thing in the rules", the specific thing wins.

That said, there is one point of interest:

The Range of Rebuke is 10' Radius, not 0' (10' Radius), or Self (10' Radius), or Melee (Radius 10'). This means that the spell provokes Free Strikes when cast. From my read of the rules, you only get the Free Strikes on INITIAL casting and not with sustaining, but it does make logical sense that this spell would provoke Free Strikes upon sustaining because you need to concentrate on maintaining the bubble, which means you are less able to avoid damage.

Food for thought. . .
Author:  SamhainIA [ Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rebuke
Cody i don't see a discrepancy between the spell and the sustain rules, I think you guys are reading in to something that happens on the initial casting that does not make sense to me.

and I have previously read 10 radious as a self spell since it doesnt have a range, but that is even more grey and would require clarification
Author:  Harliquinn [ Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rebuke
Nierite wrote:
The Range of Rebuke is 10' Radius, not 0' (10' Radius), or Self (10' Radius), or Melee (Radius 10'). This means that the spell provokes Free Strikes when cast. From my read of the rules, you only get the Free Strikes on INITIAL casting and not with sustaining, but it does make logical sense that this spell would provoke Free Strikes upon sustaining because you need to concentrate on maintaining the bubble, which means you are less able to avoid damage.

Food for thought. . .


Given the inconsistency between 0' (10' Radius) and Self (10' Radius) which mean the same, I would be very surprised if 10' Radius wasn't the same thing. It's not a X' (10' Radius) so there's no Free Strike.

John
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