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 Post subject: Re: Shields
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:14 pm 
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MaurLysander wrote:
Since my Expert gets Armor Proficiency Light with an armor from his nation I can take any ONE Shield proficiency of my choice.
I DO NOT have to go through the Shield Ladder (Buckler, Light, Heavy, Tower) just to get Heavy Shield.
Of course I have another question. The Requirement is "Armor Proficiency, any (ta)" If Armor Proficiency from Archatype is NOT the same as having the Armor Proficiency (ta) does the (ta) mean before I can do this build I also have to choose a different Armor Proficiency talent before taking the Shield?


Keep in mind, getting "Armor Proficiency (Light) with any armor from his nation is NOT the same as getting Armor Proficiency (Shield) from his nation. You cannot take Buckler as your choice.

John

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 Post subject: Re: Shields
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:32 pm 
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Harliquinn wrote:

Keep in mind, getting "Armor Proficiency (Light) with any armor from his nation is NOT the same as getting Armor Proficiency (Shield) from his nation. You cannot take Buckler as your choice.

John


Oh I realize that but the question is that if gaining Armor Proficiency from an Archetype is not the same as gaining it by taking a talent, does it mean that having Armor Proficiency from an archetype does not meet the Requirement: Armor Proficiency, any (ta)
when I desire to take Armor Proficiency: Large Shield latter in my Characters creation/career?

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 Post subject: Re: Shields
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:34 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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Nierite wrote:
Going back to the argument made above that it is IMPLIED that you get everything when you get a limited selection, does that mean Milandesians also get access to Lorica? Because if you say no, that undermines your argument, and if you say yes, then that undermines the rules as written since Lorica isn't Milandesian armour (well, unless you are a Divine Hurrianite). Same thing: You get the shields of your nation and that is it.

I'm sorry if I seem particularly argumentative about this, but as far as I can see this is one of the more clear cut rules in the book. Since it gives you a clear list of EXACTLY what is provided when it says "National", complete with page references, I cannot see how any other interpretation can be had.


Sorry if I seem particularly argumentative on the other side of the argument but I think it's equally clear the rules say exactly the opposite. Let me try again...

  1. Archetypes explicitly grant weapon and armor talents (not something that works more or less like the talents).
  2. Weapon Training and Armor Proficiency, Light/Medium/Heavy are clear cut. They give choices of specific options - it's well established elsewhere in the rules that backgrounds/paths/whatever can dictate options/choices for talents (including ignoring prereqs, granting options that are not normally choosable, and granting more/less options than usual for the talent).
  3. Armor Proficiency, Shields is completely different - it is binary (either you have the Talent or you don't) - there are no options/choices to restrict/dictate. This is the only instance I'm aware of in the entire game where the intent is apparently for something to grant you only part of a Talent that you then have to waste taking again if you want the rest of what it normally grants.

I suppose this leads into one of my minor issues with Arcanis. A lot of weapons within a category are used exactly the same - or at least very similarly. Same goes for armors and shields. I would have preferred weapon/armor groups for proficiency purposes (as is done in some other games). I liked that Armor Proficiency, Shields gave you all shields as their usage (except buckler) is very similar.

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 Post subject: Re: Shields
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:37 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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MaurLysander wrote:
Oh I realize that but the question is that if gaining Armor Proficiency from an Archetype is not the same as gaining it by taking a talent, does it mean that having Armor Proficiency from an archetype does not meet the Requirement: Armor Proficiency, any (ta) when I desire to take Armor Proficiency: Large Shield latter in my Characters creation/career?


Archetypes grant Armor Proficiency talents so any Archetype will meet the prereq for Armor Proficiency, Shield. Also, Armor Proficiency, Shield grants you proficiency with all shields (which is where a lot of this discussion came from). If you take the talent normally, you are proficient with all shields. The disagreement is what is granted by the Shield Proficiency granted from Martial Archetype.

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G'hyu'thyh Sungha - Martial Templar of Illiir 1.7
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 Post subject: Re: Shields
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:38 pm 
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This is not the first time we've argued over shields. Are they Weapons? Armor? Something different? Can I put a weapon style run one my Shield even though there is a separate Shield category for the Rune? Blah Blah Blah.

Seems to be two separate Questions. What do I get as a martial archetype vis-a-via shields? And do I really get all shields if I take Shield Proficiency?

Number 1:
SamhainIA wrote:
I should add that there are other places in the rules that are similarly murky, but the intent is clear that you only get the shields that are listed in your national description.


I totally agree with Josh here. If you are a Martial Archetype, but you come from Altheria or you are Kio then I just do not believe you automatically start off trained in Tower Shields. They don't use them.

Number 2
Yes the Shield Talent gives you access to all Shields...which includes weapon training with all shields. Yes this is more than you get with WT talent. Why is it done this way? I don't know. But I also point out that talents just aren't equal. Some are totally awesome and some are decidedly less so. Don't believe me? Consider this show down of matched pairs: In the Red corner we have the following contenders: Arcane Spell Casting, Leadership, Loyal Companion, Political Maneuvering and Smite Infidel. Facing off against them in the Blues corner are: Learn Spell, Healing Hands, Animal Affinity, Judge of Character and Infernal Heritage: Massive Horns. You spend a precious talent. Just enjoy your shields.

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 Post subject: Re: Shields
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:07 pm 

Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:12 pm
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Remember, Armor Prof Shield counts as Weapon Training for Maneuvers, but not for requirements.


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 Post subject: Re: Shields
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:30 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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deviknyte wrote:
Remember, Armor Prof Shield counts as Weapon Training for Maneuvers, but not for requirements.


Interesting. I hadn't caught that distinction before (but I've also never built a char that uses a shield as a weapon).

Is it legal to select Weapon Training (Xxx Shield) as a talent if given a choice? If so, does that count as Armor Proficiency with that specific shield type as well? I think this may have been on the old boards but don't remember the answer...

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Ss'kethis - Expert Holy Champion of the Fire Dragon 3.1
G'hyu'thyh Sungha - Martial Templar of Illiir 1.7
Eryk Bauer - Martial Awakened 1.2


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 Post subject: Re: Shields
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:51 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:48 pm
Posts: 214
The Archetype gives proficiency in the shields of your nation. If you take the Armor Proficiency: Shield talent, you would get the benefits all around, but that is specifically NOT how the Archetype Armor Proficiency Talents work. We will see about adding it to the FAQ.

You also get, de facto, weapon training with your national shields.


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 Post subject: Re: Shields
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:17 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:09 pm
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I understand that PCI Eric but it does not answer either of my questions. \
1. Does having Armor Proficiency Light from Expert Archetype meet the requirements to gain Armor Proficiency shield?

Armor Proficiency, Shield
[Combat]
Requirement: Armor Proficiency, any (ta)
Benefit: You may now utilize shields without penalty. You
may also start to acquire shield Weapon Tricks as if you
acquired Weapon Training (pg. 212) with all shields.
Special: To learn Weapon Tricks for a shield, you are still
required to possess ranks in Melee (Unbalanced), just as any
other unbalanced weapon. If you use a shield with which
you are not proficient, you gain a single point of AR which
stacks with armor, but gain no other benefits from the shield;
you also suffer double the shields SB to all attack rolls and all
Physical action skill rolls (Pg 187 AWOSE)

2. If it does may I just pick ONE shield that I know of any type, or does it scale (Buckler, to Light, to heavy, Tower) like having to have Armor Proficiency Medium before you can take Heavy?

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Primary: Lothair, Horse Brother of the Vanomir
Gate Guard: "I am sorry, my Lord, but you may not take your Horse into the party"
Lothair: "I don't understand, the invitations say Lothair plus one."


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 Post subject: Re: Shields
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:29 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:48 pm
Posts: 214
You are certainly getting Armor Proficiency (any)


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