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 Post subject: Re: Shields
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:26 pm 
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Perhaps it is just me not getting the issue, but:

Arcane and Expert - Weapon and Armour Talents = You gain Armor Proficiency,
Light that’s common to your starting nation.

This means does not mean you gain the Armour Proficiency (Light) (ta) as written, because the talent specifically says in the talent that you only gain proficiency in a number of armours equal to your passive logic. From archetype you gain only a specific selection of proficiency with armour. You would not gain "Armour Proficiency (Light) with Lorica Hamata and Sicarite Studded Armour" if you are from Milandir, but if you take the talent as a talent, you could choose those armours. This suggests it is an archetype specific ability rather than a talent (think of it as a Archetype (limited) talent.

Divine - Weapon and Armor Talents = You gain Armor Proficiency and Weapon Training in both your deity’s chosen armor and weapon.

Hurrian grants you proficiency in ANY Lorica or Cuirass, while Nier gives you proficiency in any heavy, while Saluwe' in anything with Leather in the name. None of these follow the AP (Light), Medium), (Heavy) either. This suggests it is an archetype specific ability rather than a talent (think of it as a Archetype (limited) talent.

As such, I find it difficult to hear the rationalizations about "You gain the Talent" from the archetype because NONE of the Archetypes support this argument. You gain very specific profiencies in armour and (to a lesser extent) weapons depending on Archetype which are not directly related to the talent as written that you can take whenever. You do NOT gain Shield Proficiency (Medium) if you are Coryani. Hell, you do not gain Armour Proficiency: Shield period as a Coryani. These talents are not gotten at the Archetype stage, instead you gain something completley different which is story focused rather than mechanics focused. If not, we're just playing D&D again where everyone is wearing Mithril Fullplate and wielding greatswords regardless of national affiliations.

Is it a perfect solution? No, as this debate shows. That said, the rules are VERY clear about what you get and do not get.

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 Post subject: Re: Shields
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:48 pm 
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Nierite wrote:
You do NOT gain Shield Proficiency (Medium) if you are Coryani. Hell, you do not gain Armour Proficiency: Shield period as a Coryani. These talents are not gotten at the Archetype stage, instead you gain something completley different which is story focused rather than mechanics focused.


You had me until here. While I'm not one of the for which the wording is confusing, I don't understand what you said about Coryani? Large, Small and Tower Shields are in the Coryani listing; therefore, any Martial character getting Armor Proficiency (Shield) for their starting nation as Coryani would get those.

John

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 Post subject: Re: Shields
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:07 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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Nierite wrote:
This suggests it is an archetype specific ability rather than a talent (think of it as a Archetype (limited) talent.


Except that the Archetype entries explicitly say "Weapon and Armor Talents". That makes it pretty explicit that it is granting you the Weapon Training and Armor Proficiency Talents, doesn't it? The Weapon Training and other Armor Proficiency talents are pretty straight-forward - there's plenty of other places in Arcanis where a background/path/whatever dictates options chosen for a Talent (often ignoring the normal number of choices). The issue is that Armor Proficiency, Shields grants proficiency with all shields (no choices, no options - just all) and there is no place else in Arcanis (that I'm aware of) that grants part of a Talent (either it grants the talent or it doesn't).

I would highly prefer this be kept simple (and if you are Martial, you can use any and all shields) but I'd also be okay if this is added to the FAQ/Errata as it is something very unclear and inconsistent (to me anyway).

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 Post subject: Re: Shields
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:16 pm 
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It does grant the talent. . . for extremely specific things. It does not grant "Armour Proficiency: Shield" and that is that, it grants "Armour Proficiency: Everything on this list we provide you on this page". That is NOT the Armour Proficiency Talent, but a Limited version of the talent.

I think the issue is one side says "It says you gain these proficiencies, but the talent when taken in isolation says you gain other proficencies, which mean you gain the proficiencies listed, PLUS those that the talent says you get!" and those saying "It says you gain specific profiencies, so you gain those proficiencies and no others." I'm in the later category because, to me, the rules are exceptionally clear on it. I can see the other point, but I do not think they are supported by the rules, the universe, or the intent of the writer.

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 Post subject: Re: Shields
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:48 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:36 am
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so the problem is that folks are not recognizing that the Rules don't have to follow other rules, they can grant things that are not allowable for players to choose.

shields are the discussed item here, and the basic argument is that an archtype can't (shouldn't?) grant Armor Proficiency Shield (Small Shield), because shield doesn't list out specific types its an all or nothing thing.

So there was a similar argument on the old boards about the Paths from Hunter of the Order
of St. Tancred, that grants "Monster Lore: Infernals"
On reading of the Monster Lore talent, Infernals is not an allowed option, but that Path steps outside the normal rules for a moment and grants that in specific.

I would argue that's the case here and other places in the books that where the rules grant a specific thing, that is the specific thing you get.

people are breaking out "balanced" in arguments and I don't understand why, you do realize that some nations have a better aptitude with war than others right? that's what those lists are representing, I would be really interested to hear your reasoning for why , the Hinterlanders started using tower shield all of the sudden.

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 Post subject: Re: Shields
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:02 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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SamhainIA wrote:
so the problem is that folks are not recognizing that the Rules don't have to follow other rules, they can grant things that are not allowable for players to choose.

shields are the discussed item here, and the basic argument is that an archtype can't (shouldn't?) grant Armor Proficiency Shield (Small Shield), because shield doesn't list out specific types its an all or nothing thing.


Yes. Partly. If Coryani and Elorii Nations effectively grant Armor Proficiency Shield but other nations grant some "random" sub-set of that Talent then every Martial character from another nation is at a mechanical disadvantage (not only do they have to take Armor Proficiency Shield but it is almost completely wasted as they already likely have proficiency with most shields).

There are plenty of places in the rules where they dictate choices (often granting more/fewer choices) and ignore prereqs. However, I can't think of a single other instance anywhere in the rules where a partial Talent is granted when the Talent does not have any choices/options when taken normally.

SamhainIA wrote:
So there was a similar argument on the old boards about the Paths from Hunter of the Order of St. Tancred, that grants "Monster Lore: Infernals"
On reading of the Monster Lore talent, Infernals is not an allowed option, but that Path steps outside the normal rules for a moment and grants that in specific.


Maybe it's just me but I see them as two completely different circumstances. In the case of Monster Lore, the path grants a specific choice for a Talent that normally has a choice (it grants a choice not normally allowed but so do others such as Loyal Companion granted by the Val'Dellenov Bloodline Talent).

SamhainIA wrote:
people are breaking out "balanced" in arguments and I don't understand why, you do realize that some nations have a better aptitude with war than others right? that's what those lists are representing, I would be really interested to hear your reasoning for why , the Hinterlanders started using tower shield all of the sudden.


I was going to use Milandir as a counter-example and ran across this bit. Codex of Arcanis (in ARPG) says this about Military in Milandir:
Quote:
armor is left to the individual soldier to provide for himself. Most conscripts do own armor, as Milandir has fought several wars in the last two centuries, and equipment and spoils have been passed down from father to son.


Given that, I would expect Milandir's armor/shield list to be any from the nations they warred against. Interesting but not really germane to this discussion.

I think, at this point, I'll take a step back for a bit and just watch the conversation...

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 Post subject: Re: Shields
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:25 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:36 am
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Just because they own them doesn't mean they are proficient in them, who is going to train the cantons in how to use shields the nobilty dont care for?

I think this argument has degraded to what ifs of story elements, and we can argue that all day and nobody will come out on top (except Henry)

the fact of the matter is not every one gets all of the shields based on what region they are from, and that's ok because it makes sense in general. and if it doesn't make sense in specific you can rectify that by taking a talent.

JFK is quoted as saying, Its better to light a Candle than to curse the darkness. I take that in this case as its better to make your character fit the rules than try to change the rules to fit your character.

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 Post subject: Re: Shields
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:06 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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I'm still not convinced the rules don't say you get all shields. It explicitly grants Armor Proficiency Shields for Martial which has no options to restrict (so you get all shields). Per Henry, this is not the intent so it, at least, needs a note in the official FAQ.

Personally, I still seriously dislike this as it gives certain regions a marked mechanical advantage for Martial characters that use shields (characters from other regions are either missing 1/3 of the Talent granted or have to spend a Talent to gain only 1/3 benefit). Story differences should certainly exist but significant mechanical advantages should not.

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 Post subject: Re: Shields
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:55 pm 
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I did not think I was starting some huge debate with this. I am building a martial character from the pirate isles whose primary hand-held weapon will be a large shield. His primary weapon will be unarmed. Since I get small shield I was confused by the shield proficiency talent. I now see that the proficiencies granted by Archetype are different from taking it as a talent. I rebuilt the character as an Expert. So my understanding is this.

Requirement: Armor Proficiency, any (ta)
Benefit: You may now utilize shields without penalty. You
may also start to acquire shield Weapon Tricks as if you
acquired Weapon Training (pg. 212) with all shields.

Since my Expert gets Armor Proficiency Light with an armor from his nation I can take any ONE Shield proficiency of my choice.
I DO NOT have to go through the Shield Ladder (Buckler, Light, Heavy, Tower) just to get Heavy Shield.
Of course I have another question. The Requirement is "Armor Proficiency, any (ta)" If Armor Proficiency from Archatype is NOT the same as having the Armor Proficiency (ta) does the (ta) mean before I can do this build I also have to choose a different Armor Proficiency talent before taking the Shield?

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 Post subject: Re: Shields
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:10 pm 
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If you have Armour Proficiency (Light) Hinterlands, you gain Access to Light Armours, not shields. If you were Hinterlands/Martial, you would gain Proficiency in the Small Shield, but ONLY if you are a martial character. A shield is not a Light Armour, it is a Shield, and unless you have Armour Proficiency (Shield) OR are Martial and have Armour Proficiency (See page 234 and 235 of ARPG), you do not get it.

For a Martial Pirate Isles Character, you would have to take Armour Proficiency (Shield) in order to gain access to the Large Shield for the same reason a Roman Legionnary wouldn't automatically be able to use a Chinese Dao sword with equal skill of a Chinese soldier: They aren't used in that country, so who will train you?

Going back to the argument made above that it is IMPLIED that you get everything when you get a limited selection, does that mean Milandesians also get access to Lorica? Because if you say no, that undermines your argument, and if you say yes, then that undermines the rules as written since Lorica isn't Milandesian armour (well, unless you are a Divine Hurrianite). Same thing: You get the shields of your nation and that is it.

I'm sorry if I seem particularly argumentative about this, but as far as I can see this is one of the more clear cut rules in the book. Since it gives you a clear list of EXACTLY what is provided when it says "National", complete with page references, I cannot see how any other interpretation can be had.

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