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 Post subject: Re: Shields
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:05 am 
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wilcoxon wrote:
Yes. From ARPG (Benefit entry):
Quote:
You may now utilize shields without penalty. You may also start to acquire shield Weapon Tricks as if you acquired Weapon Training (pg. 212) with all shields.


Nowhere in the talent does it say anything about choosing shields or limiting shields in any way.


I was just verifying with Henry about this. His statements could be read that even the Proficiency should to be taken for each shield individually.

John

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 Post subject: Re: Shields
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:06 am 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:08 am
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Au contraie, Mssr. :

If you use a shield with which you are not proficient, you gain a single point of AR which
stacks with armor, but gain no other benefits from the shield; you also suffer double the shields SB to all attack rolls and all Physical action skill rolls.

Meaning that you must be proficient in the shield (ala' a skill) to get the full benefit.

You know, when the Non-Rules - Story only guy can pick this out fairly easily, I'm surprised that you rules guys can't.

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 Post subject: Re: Shields
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:16 am 
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The Armour Proficiency (Shield) Talent grants weapon proficiency with all shields in terms of rules, as well as allow you to use them for Avoidance instead of simple AR, and providing you less of a SB. However, you are NOT granted Armour Proficiency (Shield) with a Martial Archetype. Instead, you are granted "You gain Armor Proficiency in ALL armor and shields common to your starting nation." This means if you are from the Coryani Empire, you gain Shield Proficiency ONLY in the Small Shield and Tower Shield. If the Martial Archetype said "You gain Armour Proficiency (Shield)" then there would be no question, but it does not.

You can get proficiency with all shields if you take the talent, but otherwise you only get a limited selection. This would be the equivalent of Nierites gaining Armour Proficiency (Heavy), but not Armour Proficiency (Light) or (Medium), even though those are typically prerequisites for (Heavy). However, it does not say you get those, so you only get what is listed.

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 Post subject: Re: Shields
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:23 am 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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Nierite, that may be the intent but it is very unclear from the book. Everything else grants talents directly (ignoring prereqs sometimes or assigning specific choices but still talents) so it's logical that Archetype proficiencies would be the same. If they are not, this needs to be called out in a more explicit way (hence my earlier comment that this should go in the FAQ). Fortunately, Shield Proficiency is the only confusing one (because the talent grants all shield proficiencies instead of only one or a very few) - to me anyway.

Henry, what shield skill? Melee (Unbalanced) is required to use shields as weapons (and, like the Proficiency talent, that one skill covers all shields) but I don't see a skill anywhere for using shields defensively.

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 Post subject: Re: Shields
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:28 am 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:08 am
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I misspoke (mis-wrote) - I meant proficiency.

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 Post subject: Re: Shields
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:38 am 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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Let me try another way of saying this...

The Archetype entry specifically says "Weapon and Armor Talents". Martial says "You gain Armor Proficiency in ALL armor and shields common to your starting nation" which to me is clearly short-hand for saying:
  • Armor Proficiency, Light (starting nation)
  • Armor Proficiency, Medium (starting nation)
  • Armor Proficiency, Heavy (starting nation)
  • Armor Proficiency, Shields [all because there is no sub-division of this talent]

The wording for Arcane and Expert also seem to back up this reading.

If the intent is that the Martial Archetype breaks the Talent definition (for Shield Proficiency) then it needs to be called out very explicitly. I'm pretty sure this is the only case anywhere in Arcanis where something grants only part of a Talent (eg the Talent normally gives "all" of something while the Path/Background/whatever only grants a few of something (instead of all)).

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 Post subject: Re: Shields
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:41 am 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:36 am
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I think you guys are approaching this question from the wrong direction to understand the why of it very well.

the dichotomy of the Armor Proficiency, Shield talent and the National Armors and Shields talents granted by archtypes.

This isn't a question of mechanics, its a question of story, sure they could have been exacting in the text of the shield proficiency, or broken it into separate talents. but these rules are aimed at simplicity(most of the time). It make more sense from a story reason to have Coryani know how to use tower shields , and Milandians to know large shields, and for people who want to spend the time to learn how to use all the shields be able to use all the shields.

When I write down my stuff I write down "National Armor : Milandir", if it makes you feel better think of your character getting a feat called National Armor that grants those specific armors and shields.

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 Post subject: Re: Shields
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:44 am 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:36 am
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I should add that there are other places in the rules that are similarly murky, but the intent is clear that you only get the shields that are listed in your national description.

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 Post subject: Re: Shields
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:11 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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From a story perspective, it may make perfect sense. From a mechanics perspective, I think it's a problem. A Martial character from Coryani or Elorii Nations has an advantage over those from anywhere else as they can use any shield without penalty (while others have to take Shield Proficiency at least for tower shield (which is mostly a waste because it grants proficiency with all shields - most of which they'll already know)). If Coryani and Elorii Nations lacked large shield (or possibly small shield) then it would be balanced.

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 Post subject: Re: Shields
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:13 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:12 pm
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SamhainIA wrote:
I should add that there are other places in the rules that are similarly murky, but the intent is clear that you only get the shields that are listed in your national description.


I would disagree that it is clear. Archetype says "Armor Talents" and Armor Proficiency, Shield grants all shield proficiencies (not some - all - making it substantially different from Weapon Training or other Armor Proficiencies).

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