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 Post subject: Are Alchemical Weapons considered 'Weapons' for Quick Draw?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:56 pm 
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Title says it all: Alchemical Weapons are weapons (They use weapon skills, thrown as weapons, and do damage). Can you use Quick Draw (Tier I) to draw and throw an Alchemical Weapon as a Trivial Action? I would say yes, but figured I'd get clarification.

John

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 Post subject: Re: Are Alchemical Weapons considered 'Weapons' for Quick Dr
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:05 pm 
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I believe drawing is a 2 Tick action, not simply drawing a weapon. As such, if you have the the alchemical compound somewhere you can easily get it (like on a belt), then I see no issue with 'drawing' it as a 2 tick (or 1 tick Trivial with Quickdraw (ta)).

If your item is in a backpack, however, then things get more complicated. . .

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 Post subject: Re: Are Alchemical Weapons considered 'Weapons' for Quick Dr
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:03 pm 
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I agree with Cody. I think it has more to do with how the item is stowed. The implied assumption is that weapons are stowed ready for action. (Swords on belts or strapped over your shoulder, spears on hand, hammers in belt loops, etc.) If the alchemical item is fragile (for example, some kind of molotov cocktail) you probably would not have it hanging from your belt where it could be easily broken. (Unless you were fully expecting to need it in the near future.) In that case, I expect that it would likely be stored somewhere with some kind of protection; likely a box in a backpack.

I'd expect table variation, but I probably would not treat it as a "weapon" in most instances. (At least not for the purposes of Quick Draw.)

Scott


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 Post subject: Re: Are Alchemical Weapons considered 'Weapons' for Quick Dr
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:09 pm 
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I generally tend to keep mine in a Bandolier so they are within easy reach. If something is in a box in a backpack, I wouldn't consider it accessible for combat either. I think most alchemical weapons are designed to be stored safely and within reach in a pouch or bandolier.

John

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 Post subject: Re: Are Alchemical Weapons considered 'Weapons' for Quick Dr
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:19 pm 

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I would tend to agree with Harliquinn. If alchemical weapons are stored for easy access/use then I see no reason why Quickdraw would not work.

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 Post subject: Re: Are Alchemical Weapons considered 'Weapons' for Quick Dr
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:28 pm 
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That has always been an issue of mine, ever since Alchemist's Fire was so popular in D20. It's a glass flask of alchemical goo that catches fire when the glass is broken and the goo is exposed to air. How many people are really going to carry a fragile and flammable/dangerous object like this dangling from their belt or tucked into a pocket or pouch? One slip on an icy path, a trip over a tree branch, a slip in the mud... and you could fall, land on it and blam, you're toast. (Carry more than one and you can't even "stop, drop and roll" safely!) Or, even more likely, you get into a combat (like adventurers are prone to do) and any one of those "hits" that damage you (heck, also include any of the hits that didn't make it past your armor, regardless of the mechanics of the RP system in use) could hit the fragile container and break it all over your leg. It just doesn't make sense to carry any fragile item out there where it could be broken for any length of time, let alone a dangerous one.

That's just my opinion, though. I guess it comes down to playability vs. reality.
Scott


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 Post subject: Re: Are Alchemical Weapons considered 'Weapons' for Quick Dr
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:37 pm 
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While I understand what you're saying Scott. If it's designed to be used in combat and requires weapon rolls, I imagine the vials are designed to break with a 'hard impact'. In addition, if they need to be stored in felt lined cases, securely in a backpack, there's no way you're drawing that out with a Tick 2 action in the middle of combat. If it takes more than 4-6 Ticks to get one out, the benefit of them goes away. They are already minor enough damage/effects that having them at the ready seems a small 'realism' price to pay to make them useful.

The system doesn't really addresses 'fragile' items you carry on you. Even items in a backpack can be crushed or broken. I'm glad it doesn't go into that much detail or require that much bookkeeping on where every thing is and whether it's subjected to damage. We don't track damage to weapons, armor, expensive clothes, or any other potentially fragile item that could get hit in combat or be subjective to environmental damage (Those fine clothes you wear are probably blood soaked and ripped to shreds every combat, etc.).

Now I can see a reasonable number of these being 'accessible' before it starts to be a character looking like a Christmas tree with alchemical ornaments.

John

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Kelb'Bakari Masalio, Dark-kin Altherian Corsair, Gentleman Archaeologist, and Wandering Bard
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 Post subject: Re: Are Alchemical Weapons considered 'Weapons' for Quick Dr
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:18 pm 
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It is the same issue with Blastpowder: How many times have people with Blastpowder been hit with a Fireball or Elemental Bolt (Fire) and we haven't bothered about setting the powder off? From a functional point of view, it probably will not be an issue so long as you take all the bandoleer/vial/etc mass and encumbrance into effect on your character.

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 Post subject: Re: Are Alchemical Weapons considered 'Weapons' for Quick Dr
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:52 pm 

Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:36 am
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in D20 there were rules to cover such an eventuality ( if you fail a save, you start to make saving throws vs worn items, there is a chart in the dmg iirc)

in ARPG there isn't such a thing, the system depends on the person running the game to govern the ridiculousness/feasibility of such things and deal with it in effective story manner.

I don't worry about blast powder because its usually kept in a powder horn, or similar device, alchemical items on the other hand.

and if rules existed for attacking items or breaking worn items, id worry about alchemical items, but as it stands that's left to the purview of the GM for the table (just don't be a dink about it I guess)

As for asking if Alchemical Items are considered weapons:
Quote:
This sphere may be thrown at an enemy as a common thrown weapon.


I think the text of the item really does explain itself, if there is a alchemical item that's a weapon that doesn't have that text then its a different thing entirely

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 Post subject: Re: Are Alchemical Weapons considered 'Weapons' for Quick Dr
PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 6:09 pm 

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I can see what you're saying about fragile alchemical items but it's a trope that multiple games inherited from D&D. The best handling I've seen of this type of item is grenades in Cursed Empire (they are not fragile and generally can't be set off accidentally (iirc) but, once armed, are unstable and you can pretty easily blow yourself up). However, Arcanis doesn't have anything similar.

As to the comment about failed saves leading to saves for items, I don't remember that from 3.5 (then again, it's been years since I played it). A quick read of the DMG sections indexed as "saving throw" don't show anything.

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