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Weapon damage. Just a thought on a perceived problem.
http://forums.paradigmconcepts.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=337		 Page 2 of 5
Author:  Pig Librarian [ Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Weapon damage. Just a thought on a perceived problem.
Larger weapons benefit more from added special maneuvers better than faster weapons, since it is a set speed, not a percentage based on the base weapon speed, Also for all weapons, the damaged is presented at the Beginning of the attack so large weapons allow you to take out an opponent before he can return the attack.

I recommend using Big weapons vs the big bad guy, and small weapons should be used against minions
Author:  wilcoxon [ Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Weapon damage. Just a thought on a perceived problem.
For exceptional weapons, it's easy:
Code:
      d6   d8   d10  d12  Spd
d4     7    8    9   10   3
d6     8    9   10   11   3
d8     9   10   11   12   4
d10   10   11   12   13   5
d12   11   12   13   14   6

DPT:
AR0   d6     d8     d10    d12
d4    2.33   2.67   3.00   3.00
d6    2.67   3.00   3.33   3.67
d8    2.25   2.50   2.75   3.00
d10   2.00   2.20   2.40   2.60
d12   1.84   2.00   2.17   2.33

AR6   d6     d8     d10    d12
d4    0.33   0.67   1.00   1.33
d6    0.67   1.00   1.33   1.67
d8    0.75   1.00   1.25   1.50
d10   0.80   1.00   1.20   1.40
d12   1.00   1.00   1.17   1.33


I'm too tired right now to work up exploding dice but I wouldn't expect it to change the results significantly...
Author:  wilcoxon [ Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Weapon damage. Just a thought on a perceived problem.
Pig Librarian wrote:
Larger weapons benefit more from added special maneuvers better than faster weapons, since it is a set speed, not a percentage based on the base weapon speed, Also for all weapons, the damaged is presented at the Beginning of the attack so large weapons allow you to take out an opponent before he can return the attack.


Correct. I can't find my notes right now but I worked up the math for TWF and you want the biggest slowest weapon you can use for one and the biggest light weapon you can use for the other (a Huge Ss'ressen with d12 primary and tail bracer secondary is I think by far the highest DPT TWF).
Author:  Deviknyte [ Sun Dec 01, 2013 1:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Weapon damage. Just a thought on a perceived problem.
Factoring in exceptional DPT is still better on faster weapons until AR8 I believe.

There are a lot of factors out there. More than just DPT off the back. Factor in talent damage, rune damage, Maneuver damage, and weapon qualities such as Armor Piercing (note there are speed 5 base AP weapons, Mace), one-hitting commons with d12 weapons, and more, and things change up. Although you get more bang for your tick with slower weapons and maneuvers, maneuvers still help faster weapons out DPT a big one.

The most important factor to weapon choice is of course RP. You wield a scythe if you are a Nerothian, you wield a gladius or spear if you are a legionnaire. Some paths are better than others and certain path members are going to wield specific weapons.
Author:  Harliquinn [ Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Weapon damage. Just a thought on a perceived problem.
Without redoing the math, I believe that exploding dice bump the Average damage by +.5.

John
Author:  davout [ Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Weapon damage. Just a thought on a perceived problem.
Just for comparison, based on what I said "roll weapon dice twice and drop the lowest" and without exploding dice and other modifiers you get:

Code:
          d6   d8    d10     d12
2d4d1   2.21   2.54   2.88   3.21
2d6d1   1.99   2.24   2.49   2.74
2d8d1   1.86   2.06   2.26   2.46
2d10d1   1.78   1.94   2.11   2.28
2d12d1   1.71   1.86   2.00   2.14


The difference between a d4 and a12 die weapons does decrease and the average damage increases as one would expect. I feel the increase on the average damage is too high for the lesser affect on the difference. So I would not use this. But this discussion has been interesting thanks.
Author:  Harliquinn [ Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Weapon damage. Just a thought on a perceived problem.
So I've put together a spreadsheet to calculate "Damage per Tick" of various weapons. I'm not done yet and I'd like to get some feedback to make sure I'm considering things properly.

Here is a rundown of my inputs:

I've divided weapons into 4 categories (The names are just made up):
Small (Spd: 3, Damage: d4)
Medium (Spd: 4, Damage: d6)
Large (Spd: 5, Damage: d8)
Heavy (Spd: 6, Damage: d10)

I've also assigned the following (Each can be changed in the calculations)
Attack Attribute Die: d10
Damage Attribute Die: d10
Skill Bonus: +6
Additional Weapon Attack/Damage Bonus Die:
Additional Weapon Attack/Damage Static Modifier:
Additional Weapon Speed Modifiers:

Other values that matter include the following (Each can be changed)
Target's Defense: 25
Number of Ticks: 12

So based upon this and assuming an Average Action Roll of 11, I use the following calculations:

Attacks / 12 Ticks: This is how many attacks the weapon gets in one cycle of the clock. It's computed by dividing 12 by the (modified) speed of the weapon.
Hit Percent: This is percent of the time that (on average) an attack with this weapon will hit. It's based on the probability distribution of getting the number needed to hit the target's Defense.
Hits / 12 Ticks: This is how many attacks will hit in one cycle of the clock on average. It's computed by multiplying the Attacks / 12 Ticks by the Hit Percent.
Average Damage / Hit: This is the average damage of the weapon. It's computed by taking the sum of the average of the Weapon Die, Damage Attribute Die, and any Die/Static Bonuses.
Damage / 12 Ticks: This is the cumulative damage the weapon does in one cycle of the clock. It's computed by multiplying the Average Damage / Hit by the Hits / 12 Ticks.
Damage / Tick: This is the Damage Per Tick (goal value) of the weapon. This is computed by Dividing the Damage / 12 Ticks by 12.

Sure, some of this could be done using 1 Tick instead of 12, but I like the whole clock cycle part.

Does anyone see any problems with this calculation?

John
Author:  Deviknyte [ Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Weapon damage. Just a thought on a perceived problem.
@John, Like I was telling Cody, you have to factor in exceptional speeds. Every combat savvy character is going to either start with an exceptional weapon are aim to get one as quickly as possible. In the campaign, reach tier 2 from 1.1 has probably netted you an exceptional weapon. When I, or anyone, talks about faster weapons (your Normal)"dealing more damage" you should automatically assume we're talking about exceptional weapons or having an exceptional weapon as soon as possible/eventually. Like when we talk about casters we're talking characters with Arcane/Divine Spell Casting (ta) and not characters who just pick up Learn Spell. Exceptional weapon is the standard, and on weapon die and attribute alone Normal weapons out DPT. BUT, like I said, many factors at play.

PS - Footman's Mace for the win!
Author:  Harliquinn [ Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Weapon damage. Just a thought on a perceived problem.
My calculations allow for additional speed, weapon damage, or attack bonuses.

For instance, to model an Exceptional version of a Normal Weapon (Speed: 4, Damage: d6), just plug in a +1 to damage and -1 Speed in my spreadsheet.

I'm more wondering if I've missed anything in the calculation method.

Here's a sample:

===================
Exceptional Normal Weapon: (Spd: 3 / Damage: d6+1)
All Dice: d10
Target Defense: 20
Combat Skill Bonus: +6

Attacks / 12 Ticks: 4 (12 / 3)
Hit Percent: 28% (2d10 Probability of getting 14 and over)
Hits / 12 Ticks: 1.12 (4 * 28%)
Average Damage / Hit: 10 (3.5 + 1 + 5.5)
Damage / 12 Ticks: 11.20
Damage / Tick: 0.93
===================

Compare that to

===================
Exceptional Heavy Weapon: (Spd: 5 / Damage: d10+1)
All Dice: d10
Target Defense: 20
Combat Skill Bonus: +6

Attacks / 12 Ticks: 2.4 (12 / 5)
Hit Percent: 28% (2d10 Probability of getting 14 and over)
Hits / 12 Ticks: 0.67 (2.4 * 28%)
Average Damage / Hit: 12 (5.5 + 1 + 5.5)
Damage / 12 Ticks: 8.06
Damage / Tick: 0.67
===================

Any problems with the math?

John
Author:  mininin [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Weapon damage. Just a thought on a perceived problem.
Of course that's with a d10 character with +6 skill. How do the stats look for a d8 character with +3 or simillar that might represent more of a starting character? Or my poor minions with +5 and d8 trying to hit PCs with avoidance 25
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